The future of FORGE: Important notes towards evolution.

[URBAN B0BCAT]

Forge: Ideas in Evolution

 

Throughout our time with the Forge, in various Halo iterations, we've witnessed the progression of the system towards a more well-rounded experience and set of tools.  Some of the changes have been invaluable and make the past look archaic, while others have left many of us in the lurch wonderning why something would be removed.  Regardless of where we are now, it's important that we directly address the future and evolution of this beloved feature of the Halo franchise.  While not all thoughts posted may be winners, all constructive ideas will help guide what we would like the Forge to become.  Please submit your stories of both toil and love for the system, so that we can steer this ship towards a greater tomorrow!

 

 

 

=^..^=

 

[TrashnSuicide]

Far cry 3 editor applied to Halo = Amazing.  Terrain editor plus large low poly items like forerunner structures just to fill in maps would be cool. 

[URBAN B0BCAT]

Apparently I need to check out Far Cry 3.  I've heard great things.

 

 

Here are a few ideas that I think are MOST necessary:

 

- Some reinvention of the "Precision Forging" ability

 

- More magnets per item with better placement (It sucks to still have to adjust object heights after snapping because they aren't flush enough... and all ramps should snap to each other side by side)

 

- If we will still have to deal with a lighting budget or hidden piece count in H5, then give us an option to view "Advanced Budgets"

 

- Let me choose between a few different themes and colors for each of the pieces (Skate 3 offers this feature, and it seems so simple)

 

- Let me "Batch Grab" a set of placed objects and move them all at once. (Again, Skate 3 offers this feature, and it saves a ton of time on adjusting hard work in an area that just needs to move a couple feet)

 

- Specific buildings, bases, and other objects that are not already symmetrical, should offer a mirrored version of themselves for use on symmetrical maps.

 

- Most, if not all, items should be given a function set ability through the item menu that will allow the Forger to designate it as a button or activation point.

 

- In conjunction with the "Button" tool above, a set of objects should be offered "Plot Points" that can be set to go from A to B, etc., upon activation. (This would create smooth doors, elevators, hidden passages, etc.)

 

- It would be really nice to be able to cut away from objects.  For instance, if I wanted to set a large wall and then cut a door out of it, at any position I choose. (A tool to create a custom sized floor or wall piece with an ability to cut away from it after setting would be even better)

[TrashnSuicide]

A trigger system in forge, even a simple version like in Trails Evolution would be incredible. 

 

Can't stress this enough Terrain Editor!!!  with cave manipulation tool. (basically steal far cry's system.)

 

Agree a light budget bar. 

 

@Urban Bobcat  

Far Cry is not a good multiplier game in comparison to Halo/COD, But they have the BEST Level CREATOR across all console games.

And it's a Creator not an Editor like forge.  You can start with a blank slate build mountains, oceans and detail the hell out of them.  For us forgers it's a wet dream, personally the only reason to get that game. 

 

I can only hope Halo 5 has a full blown creator in it.

[Pau1icu5]

I'd settle for the damned objects to stay where you left them between saves.. beyond that the activation and mechanical pieces would be awesome.

[Squally DaBeanz]

There are a lot of thing's I'd like to see, but some are just too far out there to ever make it into Forge and keep it as "Forge". I have, however, made a thread on things I think could be implemented without breaking the integrity of what Forge is.

 

http://www.343industries.org/forum/topic/27356-what-we-need-in-forge-within-reason/

[URBAN B0BCAT]

Things I would like to see in future titles that can actually BE DONE with the Halo engine (terrain editors and cutting pieces wouldn't work):

 

Precision editing returning:

'Nuf said.

 

Interchangable palettes:

Give us an option in the menu of which palette we would like to work with. In Halo 4 context, when you hit X, you'll see "Impact, Erosion, Ravine." Selecting one of these will lead you to the normal item menu, except eveything in there will have the skins of the selected palette. And not only three palettes from three maps. There are multiple themes we could use: Human Civilian, Human Slums, Human Military, Covenant, Forerunner, stone, etc.

 

Weather Effects/ Time of day Effects:

Easy to understand. In the gadgets menu, have a "Weather" menu. This will be similar to the visual filters. You place an orb on the map that will change the time of day and weather. Examples: Morning, Noon, Sunset, Night, Rain, Lightning Storm, Snow, Blizzard, Windy, Dusty, Light Rain, Cloudy.

 

Environment Pieces:

Also simple. Give us pieces that can change the environment around us. Trees, more rocks, shrubs, and terrain editing pieces. This wouldn't be a terrain editor exactly. Think of it like this: People already use rocks and tin cups to change the environment. Expand upon this idea, and give us smooth pieces with terrain skins of varying shapes and sizes to create smooth flat ground, or create rolling hills. They will still be made of individual pieces that can be placed on the existing terrain.

 

Bulk pieces:

We're almost there already with Coliseum Walls and the silo pieces on Impact. Give us large pieces with a low polygon count that can be used to create large environments at little cost on the engine. Large coliseum walls, entire ground structures (like the environment pieces), giant pillars, bigger ramps, that sort of thing.

 

Better coordinates and rotational points:

Think back to Reach. If you lined up a piece inside of anothe of the same dimensions and rotated it, it would still be inside the dimensions. This has been changed on some pieces in Halo 4, like the ramp 2X2 and corner 4X4. If you line them up then rotate them, they are off center. 343 needs to find the EXACT center of the pieces to set a rotation point. HOWEVER, they should not do this on pieces that are not an exact coordinate, like the 1X1 Tall and Thin and the Coliseum Wall. More on that here: http://www.343industries.org/forum/topic/27355-colliseum-wall-problems-and-fixes/

 

More/Better canvases:

Duh. Everyone complains about the current canvases. Now, they're not AS bad as everyone is making them out to be, but it would be nice to have some more user friendly canvses. Thank you 343 for listening to us and giving us Forge Island, but please do better with the default maps in the future. We don't want half finished "templates" to finish, but blank canvases to fully utilize. One example that I've talked about a lot is a snow canvas that would use the same texture mapping as the rocks on Ravine. They could make it so the pollar top of every piece that is exposed to the sky has snow on it.

 

Scenery:

We're getting closer with the inclusion of Dominion pieces as aesthetics, but there really should be more. Think of some of the maps in Halo 3. The first one that comes to my mind with aesthetic pieces is High Ground. That map had shelves, tables, radios, and laptops lying around. I'd like to see the inclusion of more practical aesthetic pieces like this in future titles.

 

Dynamic Objects:

Basically, give us stuff that moves. It's doesn't need to be anything crazy like custom moving pieces, but things like the Station Core on Impact. For example, give us a U shaped metal frame with movable gates attached to either side like in the back of High Ground. Nothing special, just a single piece that isn't stagnant.

 

I'm probably missing some things, but I'll leave it open to you guys. What do you think? I'm trying to think of things they could add in that wouldn't disrupt the current engine or way the game handles. Forge is and always will be a map editor at heart, simply for easy of use. There are still many things that could be improved, and I want to hear if you guys have any ideas that could be implemented SIMPLY and stay true to what Forge is.

 

 

There are some great and reasonable points in here Squally!  To pick up from where you talked about weather manipulation, I'd like to add that it would be nice to adjust the settings of the visual effects that are already in-game.  Like photoshop adjustments, it would be nice to just have a bar adjustment for hue, saturation, and contrast.  The presets could still be present as options, but we'd be able to have more subtle adjustability.  I have never commited to any of the visual filters on my maps since I think that they are all just a bit too extreme.  I really like what "Juicy" does for the look of Halo, but I'd like to tone it down a bit.

 

"Dynamic Objects" should include a lift or two of some sort as well.  If my suggested plot points idea above isn't a possibility, then I want a lift like "Ivory Tower" used to have.  That lift was always a major hot spot for action.

 

Obviously I agree with your interchangeable pallets idea considering that we both voted for it above.  This seems like a very easy idea to impliment, which would work wonders for breaking up the visual style of a map.  And yes... give us trees!

 

Needless to say, I have high hopes for H5 Forge.  This thread was never intended as a home for complaints, because I generally love to Forge, regardless of the quirks.  I just hope that these notes are seen and considered for the future of my love affair with Halo.

[BaconShelf]

I want changeable skins for forerunner, covenant and human.

 

And many more scenery objects, see my thread for more detail on the kinds of scenery I mean.

 

I'd also like place able waterfalls and rivers which can carve in the existing terrain.

[Squally DaBeanz]

I want changeable skins for forerunner, covenant and human.

 

And many more scenery objects, see my thread for more detail on the kinds of scenery I mean.

 

I'd also like place able waterfalls and rivers which can carve in the existing terrain.

That third one may be a little too much for the Halo engine.

[URBAN B0BCAT]

Should we assume that Forge Island won't be offering water access? I'd like to think that we'd get that along with a large interior grotto inside of one of the islands, but my assumption is that those are pipe dreams.

[CrimsonVolver]

Apparently I need to check out Far Cry 3.  I've heard great things.

 

 

Here are a few ideas that I think are MOST necessary:

 

- Some reinvention of the "Precision Forging" ability

 

- More magnets per item with better placement (It sucks to still have to adjust object heights after snapping because they aren't flush enough... and all ramps should snap to each other side by side)

 

- If we will still have to deal with a lighting budget or hidden piece count in H5, then give us an option to view "Advanced Budgets"

 

- Let me choose between a few different themes and colors for each of the pieces (Skate 3 offers this feature, and it seems so simple)

 

- Let me "Batch Grab" a set of placed objects and move them all at once. (Again, Skate 3 offers this feature, and it saves a ton of time on adjusting hard work in an area that just needs to move a couple feet)

 

- Specific buildings, bases, and other objects that are not already symmetrical, should offer a mirrored version of themselves for use on symmetrical maps.

 

- Most, if not all, items should be given a function set ability through the item menu that will allow the Forger to designate it as a button or activation point.

 

- In conjunction with the "Button" tool above, a set of objects should be offered "Plot Points" that can be set to go from A to B, etc., upon activation. (This would create smooth doors, elevators, hidden passages, etc.)

 

- It would be really nice to be able to cut away from objects.  For instance, if I wanted to set a large wall and then cut a door out of it, at any position I choose. (A tool to create a custom sized floor or wall piece with an ability to cut away from it after setting would be even better)

I like all of these. I have actually suggested many of these over the years, at least since Reach's Forge. CV

 

That third one may be a little too much for the Halo engine.

I agree. I don't think any engine could handle that. With BF3, though, buildings stay destroyed, cars burning, and holes from tank shells, so I don't think it is impossible, though BF3 uses a much lighter pallet to get the destruction and massive map sizes. Perhaps once the Next Gen XBOX is out we will be having whole new discussions about the game once we see just how much more power it will add. Anyhow, I still think it is an interesting idea, visually. That would be really fun to take a water object and wash/erode the landscape. This might not be so impossible in a few years.

CV

 

There are some great and reasonable points in here Squally!  To pick up from where you talked about weather manipulation, I'd like to add that it would be nice to adjust the settings of the visual effects that are already in-game.  Like photoshop adjustments, it would be nice to just have a bar adjustment for hue, saturation, and contrast.  The presets could still be present as options, but we'd be able to have more subtle adjustability.  I have never commited to any of the visual filters on my maps since I think that they are all just a bit too extreme.  I really like what "Juicy" does for the look of Halo, but I'd like to tone it down a bit.

 

"Dynamic Objects" should include a lift or two of some sort as well.  If my suggested plot points idea above isn't a possibility, then I want a lift like "Ivory Tower" used to have.  That lift was always a major hot spot for action.

 

Obviously I agree with your interchangeable pallets idea considering that we both voted for it above.  This seems like a very easy idea to impliment, which would work wonders for breaking up the visual style of a map.  And yes... give us trees!

 

Needless to say, I have high hopes for H5 Forge.  This thread was never intended as a home for complaints, because I generally love to Forge, regardless of the quirks.  I just hope that these notes are seen and considered for the future of my love affair with Halo.

Bravo. Well, I can contest that with each new Halo the Forge has inched along and became slightly better in some way. I always have high hopes for the next Forge. And I too hope 343 reads these posts and takes into consideration the suggestions and concerns of the community.

 

CV

[тυcкєя]

What I would like to see In forge is,

 

probably that you could add Brutes, Elites, Grunts etc(other than Spartans).

 

Also I think It would be so cool to

 

be able to change the weather to like,

 

snow, raining, hail storm, blizzards etc.

 

and Maybe have a bigger budget so people can buy more things.

 

Although I do think that the budget they have In Halo 4

 

Is pretty good but, some people dont think so

 

so, Id like to see It change so not as many people are complaining.

[Trifle10]

all the polls items are good but i just cant choose one and here's why

 

-more pieces. the current set is great but it would be nice to experiment with something completely different

-color. instead of using a red light or a blue light, i could make each side of the map i could make for that team. or i could make different variations of whatever

-time of day. most maps can have whatever time, or time can be rotating

-terrian themes. would be nice to decide the terrian instead of using a pre-built. or being able to edit the terrian and then being able to set the boundaries

-anywhere on the map. there's a lot of great areas but there past kill boundaries

[URBAN B0BCAT]

What I would like to see In forge is,

 

probably that you could add Brutes, Elites, Grunts etc(other than Spartans).

...

 

and Maybe have a bigger budget so people can buy more things.

 

...

 

I suspect that we'll see some budget adjustments with the new engine on H5 possibly.  I don't necessarily think that the budget is a terrible thing to work with since it can force a Forger to become more sensible with their peice count and usage.  However, I always end up being at the top of my budget with more aspirations towards placing details that I can never afford.  My biggest request here would be to not have a piece count limit that is "Invisible" because I may have budget left, but I've already used too many pieces.  I'm then forced to cut visual aspects or respawns in order to offer CTF of King of the Hill variants.

 

Your note concerning non-Spartan interaction capability is probably the most important thing that you proposed!

 

You're really getting into the meat of what this thread is about with that comment, which is amazing!  You're right, although the engine and factors necessary for those additions aren't currently in place, imagine the capabilities of our beloved Forge if we could define experiences outside of multi-player!!!  I wasn't a huge fan of Firefight, but there are Halo lovers out there that have expressed interest in the return of that mode.  Spartan Ops was a great replacement for Firefight, in my personal opinion, but both modes and more could be offered from Forgers if they allowed us to add incrimental Covenant/Promethian troop drops and spawns.  What 343 would ultimately end up with, is a community that is self-serving and offers a constant influx of single and multi player experiences to itself!  Additionally, the cream of the experience-creating crop would rise to the top and offer 343 possible candidates for future hire and creative input.

 

I really like that we have now crossed into territory outside of the basic aesthetics and build tools that we would like to see offered!  Way to go Tucker!  Let's jump off of that point and see where it takes us?  What else is way outside of the box and could change our creation experience for the better on a different and larger scale?  I'll be thinking about this one and offer up some input a bit later as well.

 

 

all the polls items are good but i just cant choose one and here's why

...

 

Trifle... I appreciate your struggle, since clearly we would like to see all of them implimented, but that's the joy of the poll.  You must struggle to choose which one would benefit the Forge the MOST.  Get your vote on sir! 

[TrashnSuicide]

@Tucker, Adding BOT paths and triggers would be an amazing feature for forge. It would take Machinima to a whole new level. And like Urban Bobcat said 

What 343 would ultimately end up with, is a community that is self-serving and offers a constant influx of single and multi player experiences to itself!  Additionally, the cream of the experience-creating crop would rise to the top and offer 343 possible candidates for future hire and creative input.

 

 

All around good idea.  And it's a little more feasible than a full blown editor (terrain editing etc..) Which would require them to code a completely new forge system. which isn't a horrible idea but I'm sure resources would be dedicated else where during the games production. Though with the overwhelming pile of ideas 343 has to sift through I am left drooling thinking about future forge versions on Next Gen consoles. 

 

As for the BOTs They could optimize all that data the same way they do with forge objects.  Limit total number of Bots either on screen or total.  I think an on screen limit would work well, spawning groups of a limited amount would control frame rate loss and any dirping. And you could add options for the BOTs like behavior, aggressive, passive, scared, alert etc.. But you would need a whole new set of tools for BOTs specifically like Trigger,Paths, Zone limiters, Action options (BOT runs to tank and hops in), Camera Cutscene etc.. I know the forge community is ready for this and so much more, we can hope right?

 

Again Very cool idea Tucker.

 

I see a mini game with a pit full of grunts. (fish in a barrel)  most kills wins. 

Or having Watcher vs Human,  weapons: sticky grenade.  load out: jump jets.  in a round arena with some minimal cover and height variation.

[CrimsonVolver]

I know it is not fiesible, but I wish 343 would take time/money to invest in vevisioning the Forge progam. I know they need to invest their resources elsewhere, but the Forge is one of the crown jewels of the Halo experience, and I don't think Forgers would mind 343 making some dramatic revisions/updates to Forge Mode. There have been hundreds of posts created over the years with creative suggestions from the community since before Reach.

CV

All around good idea.  And it's a little more feasible than a full blown editor (terrain editing etc..) Which would require them to code a completely new forge system. which isn't a horrible idea but I'm sure resources would be dedicated else where during the games production. Though with the overwhelming pile of ideas 343 has to sift through I am left drooling thinking about future forge versions on Next Gen consoles. 

[AFuglyCarrort]

I would like BOTS like the way they have in COD (even if i hate the game) to test out maps or pracise race maps (im a big race fan) cause i can never get lobbys together to test my maps

[Squally DaBeanz]

I would like BOTS like the way they have in COD (even if i hate the game) to test out maps or pracise race maps (im a big race fan) cause i can never get lobbys together to test my maps

That would be impossible with Forge maps. The reason it works in CoD and other games is because they are on prebuilt maps. The AI in the bots have been programmed to know the maps layout through hardcoding and creating paths for them to travel on. Unless they add a full suite of proffessional AI programming into Forge, we won't see bots.

[URBAN B0BCAT]

That would be impossible with Forge maps. The reason it works in CoD and other games is because they are on prebuilt maps. The AI in the bots have been programmed to know the maps layout through hardcoding and creating paths for them to travel on. Unless they add a full suite of proffessional AI programming into Forge, we won't see bots.

 

Though difficult, I think that's part of the idea.  Obviously, the bots would have to have some built in mechanics for recognizing placed Forge pieces, along with a set of tactic variants as mentioned above.  With the new tools in place, it sounds like it could be achievable over the long term.  Just like spawning and map testing, the bots interaction with your map would have to be tweaked and worked until smooth and correct.

[URBAN B0BCAT]

Continuing down our road of "Out-of-the-Box" idea exploration, I think that it would be pretty sweet if we could add dynamic loadout cameras.  It would be nice if they were not blurry to start, as well as capable of pans/tilts/dolly moves.  The point of these cameras is to give a quick highlight of the map while loadouts are chosen anyways, so it would be great to add some drama to the opening shot(s).

 

Another nice addition could be the ability to set waypoints in any game variant.  For instance, if the point of your map is to create progressive flood map travel for a team of survivors, adding a waypoint to focus their attention, or to offer a set of options for travel, would be great for the guided story telling aspect of their journey.  These waypoints would, of course, have to be set to react to "triggers" or player progression during the round.

 

This isn't thinking outside of the box necessarily, but it seems like a simple enough idea that should really be offered in the next Forge set of tools.  Let us determine a set path for man cannons/lifts.  A lot of time can be spent tweaking man cannons to ensure that they are flawless from any angle of approach.  This is, often times, harder than it seems.  Squally DaBeanz, and a few others, can tell you that you end up needing to "Forge In" the players by constricting their angle of approach.  While this isn't always a problem necessarily, it does mean that you are required to Forge in pieces that you don't particularly like or need for the aesthetics of the map in order to properly control player movement.  Like the primary lift on "Epitaph" from Halo 3, there is a very specific route that each player follows in order to consistently land in the same spot on the upper platform.  Adding this tool would then eliminate the need for three different intensities of man cannons that all look the same. (Light/Normal/Heavy)

[TrashnSuicide]

@Urban Bobcat.  the above ideas would be easy to implement as well, I think these options should be standard in future titles.  I like the Bot's idea but fine tuning a grav lift is tough enough let alone 20-40 Bot's paths, actions, and triggers would be insane. Might as well just go to school for game developmental at that point. Even still I would love to see those features. 

Cool ideas

 

Skybox control would be nice too.  allow me to switch between a few presets (cloudy,clear,overcast, etc) it's a 2d image applied to a sphere anyways, the processing power is next to none to preform this action. Time of day and weather effects is where you can strain a system. 

[Is not JL]

Right. I voted the ideas were crap, not because they're crap but because I couldn't vote for multiple things.

 

First of all, something we all need back.....The Forge tools in 2.0 that is missing in Halo 4's Forge. Precision editing, Zoom....taking them out was NOT evolution.

 

Now, first to address your above ideas. First of all, I'll actually talk about Forge Pallet on every map. Yes - so long as we get new pieces for the specific maps. Durr.

 

New pieces - YES! There are always different ways to create different things. New pieces increase what you can create by a LOT.

 

Time of day, tint of objects. Well, most objects in Halo 4 allow you to set them to a 'team'. For most of the structures, it just sets a color. However! If we were able to have an easy way to customize lighting, that would be great!

 

Time, though. I'm gonna say this - If Forge helped out Machinima, that would be amazing. Green Screens shows that 343 cares. Time of day would make everything even better.

 

I'm gonna have to say, if Forge wants to evolve, it needs more, better tools.....but I think, more. A larger limit. More pieces placed at once.

 

Its going to open up so much for map makers if that happened. Not saying the maps without a high piece count is bad, but I'm saying that eventually, great maps will benefit because of a higher limit.

[URBAN B0BCAT]

The addition of "Magnets" in H4 Forge was clearly a hit.  Unfortunately, they were more of a base-run than a home-run.  As these magnets are refined for better position in the next Forge, we should also consider additional tasks for the little glowing balls of goodness.  It would be nice to have two sets of magnets for each piece....  "Edge" and "Interlocked".

 

In the same menu that you choose to activate or de-activate magnets, you should be able to choose between these two magnet sets as well.  The "Edge" magnets would line up pieces so that they are flush, never overlapping.  The "Interlocked" set of points would set pieces so that they overlap each other by a small amount, hiding any inherent visual edge that the piece has.  In other words, the pieces would be designed to have standard visual characteristics, allowing the "Interlocked" feature to cover up any seems, essentially creating what looks like one larger piece.  This would be amazing for creating more asthetically pleasing maps where one long wall looks like a solid piece and hides the work of the Forger.

[VideoDragoon]

There should be the ability to take screenshots of a map and have it displayed as the default file picture versus having the same picture for every map made.

[CrimsonVolver]

There should be the ability to take screenshots of a map and have it displayed as the default file picture versus having the same picture for every map made.

Totally agree. Also, would be nice to have to ability to use a kind of trait zone to label areas for call outs, as the official maps in Reach had. CV