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Composition of MJOLNIR Armor?

MJOLNIR Armor Armour Halo Chemistry Physics

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#1 UNSC Spartan-II

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Posted 03 July 2015 - 05:08 PM

We know for sure that MJOLNIR is composed of a Titanium alloy. We do not know what elements are included in this alloy (besides Titanium), so we can only make an educated guess. 

 

What elements do you believe are involved in the Titanium alloy used to make MJOLNIR armor, and why?

 

This question applies to Mark IV, V, and VI. It only involves the elements existing today, and does not include the possibility of any possible undiscovered future elements.


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#2 Axilus Prime

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Posted 03 July 2015 - 07:30 PM

Pretty sure armor like that isn't possible without undiscovered future elements.


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#3 Twinreaper

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Posted 03 July 2015 - 08:09 PM

Titanium by itself is the highest hardness to density ratio of all metals.   Titanium is already a "thing", silly kids.  Titanium is comprised of 6% aluminium, 4% vanadium, 0.25% (maximum) iron, 0.2% (maximum) oxygen.  Titanium Alloy is the highest Grade of Titanium available for use.  Even in the future, Titanium cannot be readily mixed with other elements easily, so it is logical to assume that the same alloy used here is the same Titanium Alloy we have now.

 

 

Now here is the tricky part.....the power suit or enhanced biology of the Spartans.  To create the armor at a standard 1.5 inch thickness, it would require likely a total of 60+ x 72+ cubic inches of Titanium Alloy.  This alloy in this estimate would weigh roughly 1,500 lbs.  Even by superhuman genetic standards and the small parts we are to believe are the "power assisted" components...still means that the suit itself would produce a solid additional 700+ lbs. on the wearer. 

 

Sorry....but I can't buy into that.  Even Arnold at the peak of his physical ability, would not be able to wear a suit of 700lb armor and jump around and do acrobatics like Spartans do.  The sheer strength alone to move the other 700lbs would simply not fit into a suit at the small size we are to believe they are.

 

Furthermore, looking at the melting temperature and elemental effects on Titanium from orbit drops, all of the suit would burn up or react with Nitrogen and Oxygen while free falling through the atmosphere at the standard 1650 Celsius mark.  At 1668 the Titanium would liquefy, at 1350 the suit would begin to oxidize and corrode from the oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere.  If anything survived at all, roughly maybe 200-300 lbs. of the suit would remain.

 

Next let's look at this temperature.  1650 degrees Celsius!!!!!!!  There is no amount of liquid viscous or thermally inductive enough to provide any residual thermal bleed through from the Titanium.  The wearer of the Spartan armor, regardless of gel layer would feel temperatures of at least 500 Celsius through the suit and cooling layer.  As we all know...humans can only withstand 57 degrees Celsius but if we stay hydrated.  Even humans who have been altered can only theoretically withstand maybe twice that amount.  The key id hydration.  In a suit that is reaching 500 degrees +...not even that small suit could provide enough hydration or cooling to stop the body or wearer from drying out and dying.


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#4 UNSC Spartan-II

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 06:32 AM

Titanium by itself is the highest hardness to density ratio of all metals.   Titanium is already a "thing", silly kids.  Titanium is comprised of 6% aluminium, 4% vanadium, 0.25% (maximum) iron, 0.2% (maximum) oxygen.  Titanium Alloy is the highest Grade of Titanium available for use.  Even in the future, Titanium cannot be readily mixed with other elements easily, so it is logical to assume that the same alloy used here is the same Titanium Alloy we have now.

 

 

Now here is the tricky part.....the power suit or enhanced biology of the Spartans.  To create the armor at a standard 1.5 inch thickness, it would require likely a total of 60+ x 72+ cubic inches of Titanium Alloy.  This alloy in this estimate would weigh roughly 1,500 lbs.  Even by superhuman genetic standards and the small parts we are to believe are the "power assisted" components...still means that the suit itself would produce a solid additional 700+ lbs. on the wearer. 

 

Sorry....but I can't buy into that.  Even Arnold at the peak of his physical ability, would not be able to wear a suit of 700lb armor and jump around and do acrobatics like Spartans do.  The sheer strength alone to move the other 700lbs would simply not fit into a suit at the small size we are to believe they are.

 

Furthermore, looking at the melting temperature and elemental effects on Titanium from orbit drops, all of the suit would burn up or react with Nitrogen and Oxygen while free falling through the atmosphere at the standard 1650 Celsius mark.  At 1668 the Titanium would liquefy, at 1350 the suit would begin to oxidize and corrode from the oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere.  If anything survived at all, roughly maybe 200-300 lbs. of the suit would remain.

 

Next let's look at this temperature.  1650 degrees Celsius!!!!!!!  There is no amount of liquid viscous or thermally inductive enough to provide any residual thermal bleed through from the Titanium.  The wearer of the Spartan armor, regardless of gel layer would feel temperatures of at least 500 Celsius through the suit and cooling layer.  As we all know...humans can only withstand 57 degrees Celsius but if we stay hydrated.  Even humans who have been altered can only theoretically withstand maybe twice that amount.  The key id hydration.  In a suit that is reaching 500 degrees +...not even that small suit could provide enough hydration or cooling to stop the body or wearer from drying out and dying.

 

I'm sure we all know that titanium is already a 'thing'.

 

Some of the Spartan-II augmentations increase tissue density and make bones near indestructible. As mentioned, the suit helps adjust the user to its internal body. Looking at an element with a higher melting point; Tungsten doesn't melt until around 3422 degrees Celsius.

 

I'm not intending to go off-topic with the advantages and disadvantages of MJOLNIR armour, I merely want to see what others think about the titanium alloy used to make MJOLNIR armour. If it is made from one of today's alloys, then it may be Grade 38 or Grade 5. Do you agree with this? If so, then we can most likely tell what the other elements are. Either way, it appears that titanium is the most used element in the creation of this armour. Would having titanium as an alloy increase or decrease its melting point? Clearly the alloy is stronger than titanium alone, though I am not too sure about how its melting point is affected.


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#5 Unease Peanut

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 01:30 PM

Sugar, spice and eveything nice

 

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#6 BaconShelf

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 02:15 PM

Titanium by itself is the highest hardness to density ratio of all metals. Titanium is already a "thing", silly kids. Titanium is comprised of 6% aluminium, 4% vanadium, 0.25% (maximum) iron, 0.2% (maximum) oxygen. Titanium Alloy is the highest Grade of Titanium available for use. Even in the future, Titanium cannot be readily mixed with other elements easily, so it is logical to assume that the same alloy used here is the same Titanium Alloy we have now.


Now here is the tricky part.....the power suit or enhanced biology of the Spartans. To create the armor at a standard 1.5 inch thickness, it would require likely a total of 60+ x 72+ cubic inches of Titanium Alloy. This alloy in this estimate would weigh roughly 1,500 lbs. Even by superhuman genetic standards and the small parts we are to believe are the "power assisted" components...still means that the suit itself would produce a solid additional 700+ lbs. on the wearer.

Sorry....but I can't buy into that. Even Arnold at the peak of his physical ability, would not be able to wear a suit of 700lb armor and jump around and do acrobatics like Spartans do. The sheer strength alone to move the other 700lbs would simply not fit into a suit at the small size we are to believe they are.

Furthermore, looking at the melting temperature and elemental effects on Titanium from orbit drops, all of the suit would burn up or react with Nitrogen and Oxygen while free falling through the atmosphere at the standard 1650 Celsius mark. At 1668 the Titanium would liquefy, at 1350 the suit would begin to oxidize and corrode from the oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere. If anything survived at all, roughly maybe 200-300 lbs. of the suit would remain.

Next let's look at this temperature. 1650 degrees Celsius!!!!!!! There is no amount of liquid viscous or thermally inductive enough to provide any residual thermal bleed through from the Titanium. The wearer of the Spartan armor, regardless of gel layer would feel temperatures of at least 500 Celsius through the suit and cooling layer. As we all know...humans can only withstand 57 degrees Celsius but if we stay hydrated. Even humans who have been altered can only theoretically withstand maybe twice that amount. The key id hydration. In a suit that is reaching 500 degrees +...not even that small suit could provide enough hydration or cooling to stop the body or wearer from drying out and dying.


A) Only the armour components are made of titanium (Well, only the helmet, says the lore, for some inexplicable reason)
B) Te suit is power assisted, so it's doing most of it's own heavy lifting
C) (this is general) The halopedia page gives the full list. I'll link when I get back, it mentions piezoelectricity conponents.

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#7 Twinreaper

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 02:32 PM

Bacon you missed the point.  No components to assist in this way would fit inside the suit.  I don't really casre what lore dsyas, show me some schematics to prove the size/stength of the compnents.

 

Spartan, Titanium Alloy does come in grades yes.  Which grade is being used...likely 5.  The lesser grades of "Titanium" are non alloyed, hence the Titanium name and not the full name of Titanium Alloy, which is comprised exactly as I emntioned above.  Further, even if the helmet was the only Titanium Alloy piece and the rest was another unknown metal, the wearer would NOT be protected by the thermal bleed through from the helmet and their head would literally burn up into ash during space jumps.

 

The bone thing in the lore is completely fiction.  The entire process they describe is NOT possible in any manner as oscification ends when you are done growing.  most oscification ends at around 19 years of age.  Oscification of childrens bones, would result in the child spartan not growing at all.  Even so, the porcelain hybrid they use is on the INSIDE of the bone.  This does nothing for ligiments or tendons and can and will result in the bone fragments that surround the cmpound, shattering completely with no hope of growing back or healing.  Further, it would still result in the Spartan being suseptible to infection and internal injutry.

 

Either way you slice it, Halo is a far far cry from real science and anything real in terms of physics, biology or technology.  But then again, people seem to take it way to far and pretend or forget, that this is a GMAE and isn't real life and in the end doesn't matter.  End rant...


Edited by Twinreaper, 04 July 2015 - 02:34 PM.

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#8 UNSC Spartan-II

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 05:25 PM

Bacon you missed the point.  No components to assist in this way would fit inside the suit.  I don't really casre what lore dsyas, show me some schematics to prove the size/stength of the compnents.

 

Spartan, Titanium Alloy does come in grades yes.  Which grade is being used...likely 5.  The lesser grades of "Titanium" are non alloyed, hence the Titanium name and not the full name of Titanium Alloy, which is comprised exactly as I emntioned above.  Further, even if the helmet was the only Titanium Alloy piece and the rest was another unknown metal, the wearer would NOT be protected by the thermal bleed through from the helmet and their head would literally burn up into ash during space jumps.

 

The bone thing in the lore is completely fiction.  The entire process they describe is NOT possible in any manner as oscification ends when you are done growing.  most oscification ends at around 19 years of age.  Oscification of childrens bones, would result in the child spartan not growing at all.  Even so, the porcelain hybrid they use is on the INSIDE of the bone.  This does nothing for ligiments or tendons and can and will result in the bone fragments that surround the cmpound, shattering completely with no hope of growing back or healing.  Further, it would still result in the Spartan being suseptible to infection and internal injutry.

 

Either way you slice it, Halo is a far far cry from real science and anything real in terms of physics, biology or technology.  But then again, people seem to take it way to far and pretend or forget, that this is a GMAE and isn't real life and in the end doesn't matter.  End rant...

 

You just stated this is a rant, and so I now have lost all enthusiasm in responding to your points. If one is too stubborn to accept the idea of science being implemented into fiction, then their mind is incredibly limited overall.


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#9 Twinreaper

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 06:21 PM

My mind isnt limited. I operate on fact and reality. I thought this was supposed to be a serious discussion about armor construction based on scientific principles. Sorry, I guess I missed the point. Please continue, I won't interupt any further.

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#10 UNSC Spartan-II

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 06:45 AM

My mind isnt limited. I operate on fact and reality. I thought this was supposed to be a serious discussion about armor construction based on scientific principles. Sorry, I guess I missed the point. Please continue, I won't interupt any further.

 

I did not say your mind was limited. You've got it spot on; this is about fact, reality, and scientific principles. It is just that you have gone wildly off-topic, discussing things that are completely irrelevant to this thread's existence. The OP clearly asks about the elements involved in the Ti alloy used to make MJOLNIR armour. Any contribution is not an interruption, and I greatly appreciate a proper, scientific response to the question asked.


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#11 RedStarRocket91

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 07:39 AM

I actually happen to agree with Twin on the weight of the armour, because the problem is that while it may well be powered, insofar as it's visually depicted it isn't self-supporting - which means that the wearer has to absorb its full weight on their shoulders, spine, and legs. I guess we can handwave this a bit by saying that the undersuit is actually self-supporting and capable of holding the weight of the armour, meanings the Spartan inside just needs to 'drive' the thing rather than actually holding it up and pushing it around with their own muscles, but even then, it would be nice if there were some visual elements which actually demonstrate this. Put bluntly, unless it contains its own synthetic muscles, any clothing or armour is going to have a negative impact on the strength and agility of the wearer, and Spartans are no different.

 

In terms of the medical stuff? I can accept it because it's the future. We have medicines and procedures today which scientists even a hundred years ago would have dismissed as completely ridiculous (pacemakers, organ transplants, vaccines, etc), so while it may seem impractical or impossible to us today, it's reasonable enough to believe we'll be able to do it in 500 years. 

 

As for the heat resistance - your physics is flawed, Twin, we have stuff that can do that today. And given that current Mjolnir was specifically built to resist plasma attacks - which are even hotter - the only issue with falling from space would be the force of impact, not heat. I also think you're probably overestimating the amount of armour which is dedicated to stopping projectiles - remember, as we saw with Kat, Mjolnir armour can be quite easily pierced once the energy shielding is down, so it's probably safe to assume that the majority of the armour we see is there to help give the shield its shape or absorb heat, rather than resist bullets. Taking that as true, and assuming the undersuit is in fact essentially a self-supporting synthetic muscle which interfaces directly with a Spartan's nervous system rather than just to cover their modesty, I think Mjolnir as a concept is perfectly within the bounds of realism, even if it is centuries ahead of where we are technologically.

 

OT: I don't know nearly enough about metallurgy to even begin to speculate.


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#12 BaconShelf

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 08:09 AM

I actually happen to agree with Twin on the weight of the armour, because the problem is that while it may well be powered, insofar as it's visually depicted it isn't self-supporting - which means that the wearer has to absorb its full weight on their shoulders, spine, and legs. I guess we can handwave this a bit by saying that the undersuit is actually self-supporting and capable of holding the weight of the armour, meanings the Spartan inside just needs to 'drive' the thing rather than actually holding it up and pushing it around with their own muscles, but even then, it would be nice if there were some visual elements which actually demonstrate this. Put bluntly, unless it contains its own synthetic muscles, any clothing or armour is going to have a negative impact on the strength and agility of the wearer, and Spartans are no different.

In terms of the medical stuff? I can accept it because it's the future. We have medicines and procedures today which scientists even a hundred years ago would have dismissed as completely ridiculous (pacemakers, organ transplants, vaccines, etc), so while it may seem impractical or impossible to us today, it's reasonable enough to believe we'll be able to do it in 500 years.

As for the heat resistance - your physics is flawed, Twin, we have stuff that can do that today. And given that current Mjolnir was specifically built to resist plasma attacks - which are even hotter - the only issue with falling from space would be the force of impact, not heat. I also think you're probably overestimating the amount of armour which is dedicated to stopping projectiles - remember, as we saw with Kat, Mjolnir armour can be quite easily pierced once the energy shielding is down, so it's probably safe to assume that the majority of the armour we see is there to help give the shield its shape or absorb heat, rather than resist bullets. Taking that as true, and assuming the undersuit is in fact essentially a self-supporting synthetic muscle which interfaces directly with a Spartan's nervous system rather than just to cover their modesty, I think Mjolnir as a concept is perfectly within the bounds of realism, even if it is centuries ahead of where we are technologically.

OT: I don't know nearly enough about metallurgy to even begin to speculate.



MJOLNIR MKIV (the variant in use all the way up to 2552) was designed for use against human enemies and as such is nearly bullet proof but can only take a few plasma shots. Later variants (MKV, MKVI, MKVII and GEN2) are designed for more emphasis on plasma damage.

A good amount of protection comes from a shock-absorbent gel layer used to also carry an inbuilt AI.

Also, any time we have seen a spartan fall from space, they have always had a heat shield (Forerunner door, Halo 3, Dawn wreckage, Halo 4, 're-entry pack'Reach). In Halo: First Strike, many Spartans are forced to jump from a pelican (that was nowhere near the height of the Keyship, mind) into a forest after ring shot down. Over half the company I killed or injured in the fall. An they landed in some trees that could slow the fall.

Edited by BaconShelf, 05 July 2015 - 08:18 AM.

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#13 UNSC Spartan-II

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 10:36 AM

If we are talking specifically about heat resistance, it's also worth mentioning the titanium nanoncomposite bodysuit, which is designed to withstand heat from plasma. Plasma can go up to thousands of degrees Celsius, I'm confident that heat-resistance is not a big issue. The external alloy may suffer mildly from some plasma burns, but it would take a lot to melt through that armour and the bodysuit found inbetween.

 

Although I had no intention on discussing the reality of MJOLNIR, I'm more than confident that we can develop such an armour in this century, minus the shielding. One hold-back is the resources, and possibly an efficient, long-lasting energy source.

 

More on-topic; does anyone believe that Grade 5 Titanium alloy is all that is needed for the external MJOLNIR armour?


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#14 BaconShelf

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 01:09 PM

If we are talking specifically about heat resistance, it's also worth mentioning the titanium nanoncomposite bodysuit, which is designed to withstand heat from plasma. Plasma can go up to thousands of degrees Celsius, I'm confident that heat-resistance is not a big issue. The external alloy may suffer mildly from some plasma burns, but it would take a lot to melt through that armour and the bodysuit found inbetween.

 

Although I had no intention on discussing the reality of MJOLNIR, I'm more than confident that we can develop such an armour in this century, minus the shielding. One hold-back is the resources, and possibly an efficient, long-lasting energy source.

 

More on-topic; does anyone believe that Grade 5 Titanium alloy is all that is needed for the external MJOLNIR armour?

 

plasma doesn't burn. It is regular atoms heated and pressurised to the point the electrons detach and the atom becomes heavily ionised- plasma does not create heat. Heat creates plasma. 

 

To put it another way, the plasma does not create heat in a star. Nuclear fusion creates heat, the plasma is a byproduct of that heat. A plasma weapon creates plasma by generating a lot of heat, then guiding a plasma bolt via a magnetic field to a target. After a certain range, the plasma simply disperses into the air.

 

Minor detail but worth pointing out.


Edited by BaconShelf, 05 July 2015 - 01:11 PM.

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#15 Twinreaper

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 02:29 PM

The physics are spot on. Scientific fact that Titanium Alloy melts at 1698 Celcius and while exposed to high temperatures, both Nitrogen and Oxygen gas weaken the alloy.

Yes we do have materials that can withstand upwards of 2,000 Çelcius, but these composites are ceramic and stone similar to the ones used on Space Shuttles.

On the other sciency part, it would literally be impossible for a weapon the size of the ones carried by troops to produce the heat required to actually biproduct plasma. Even if it could, the radius and temperature of the air around the weilder would result in instant death.

Energy Shields as in the Halo Universe would not protect against heat very well. While yes we can create certain types of magnatic fields to stave off radiation, physical impact etc ... the power required to produce such an energy shield simply would not be able to be fitted into an armor....with everything else a Spartan Suit supposedly supports and does. Even if such a shield could be created by a power soirce that could fit small enough inside, it's output ratio would not achieve the required amount to protect the user from everything we have seen.

Gel layers....say what? At maximum, your talking about a viscous liquid that is likely (from armor shot) no thicker than 1/2 to a full inch in depth. Name one liquid polymer in a globen like state that could differ or absorb vibration or impact enough to completely fend off physical harm.

Heres a thought for you... A penny dropped from the Empire state building has just enough mass and acceleration from gravity to split concrete. Now compare the mass of the penny to a Spartan Alloy armor that weighs a thousand times that. Just an impact alone would likely result in a crater the size of one New York City Block!

Edited by Twinreaper, 05 July 2015 - 02:34 PM.

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