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Reasons not to have Trueskill ranking system?


Zakkiee

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I know this is a topic many people are tired of, but I hope this discussion will never stop until we get what we want because I believe this is the most important aspect of Halo.

 

After playing almost nothing but Halo for 8 years I know a lot experienced Halo players and every single one agrees that the foundation of Halo is a true skill ranking system. It's a very skillfull game and you can not match just anyone together because nobody will have a good time and that is the biggest problem for me, a lot bigger problem then instant respawn or boltshot as starting weapon.

 

The 1-50 system is not perfect, it has derankers, people selling accounts, etc. But you know what? IT STILL WORKS.

 

It gives the game depth.

Fair matches everyone will enjoy

Reason to improve yourself.

Something to work for.

A satisfying feeling that makes everything worth while, a feeling you didn't get in other FPS games and for that reason it made Halo unique.

 

I have read many comments here on this forums from people saying that this new system is the way to go, but never had any reasoned arguments. I have still not heard real argument against the trueskill system and what makes the progression system in Reach and Halo 4 better and that is the reason for this post. I want to hear why, I want to hear good arguments against it, maybe it can change my perspective and a few others so I can let this go.

 

Please don't reply with a fanboy answer or if you started in Halo Reach or Halo 4, if you have not experienced it you can not judge it.

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I just remember the massive amount of derankers and modders that would always water down the ranking system. In all honesty though I think that any horizontally based system is better than the linear system we have now.

Derankers is something they should be able to fix inside the system, I actually don't remember that being a big problem. I am ofcourse aware that it is probably the biggest reason to be against the trueskill system but it just shows how much having a 50 was worth, people were ready to put in a lot of effort, even though that effort was cheating.

And though derankers were a problem the system still did it's job and most people have great memories battling through the ranks, not just playing through them like we do today.

I actually don't mind what rank system we have, and I wish everyone else thought that too.

Not all people care for it but then again they would not complain if it was in the game, it doesn't matter to most casual players, I see it as a win win situation. But did you experience the competitiveness in Halo 2 or Halo 3? Did you make it to 40+ in highest skill?

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I actually don't mind what rank system we have, and I wish everyone else thought that too.

 

You wanna know why I hate this type of rank system? Because it's NOT a ranking system. You play games and you rank up, win or lose you earn exp. Being SR 130 doesn't make you good when you have a negative k/d. I want to get team mates with SIMILAR skill. Not bad randoms who can't go positive to save their life or don't know the first thing about objective control.

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If you're talking about 1-50 from Halo 2 my post isn't about that. I didn't play enough Halo 2 online to know anything about that. I played plenty of Halo 3 though, and if you're talking about THAT 1-50 then you're talking about visible Trueskill.

 

Here's the problem with visible Trueskill:

 

Trueskill isn't supposed to be visible.

 

That's really all there is to it.

 

But to gently address your arguments...

 

It gives the game depth.

 

Good deep gameplay gives games depth. Layers of complexity also give games depth, but when they are the source of depth it's debatable whether that is "good" depth. You could make a very complex game that was utterly boring, and while I'm sure it would be very "deep," I might contest the value of depth at that point.

 

Fair matches everyone will enjoy

 

Trueskill is present whether it's visible or not. Showing it to players increases their interest in controlling it (That's what gamers do, they use information they have to gain an edge). The point is the system is trying to make matches fair whether you see it working or not, and in fact it's less effective if you CAN see it.

 

As for "Everyone will enjoy" that again is entirely dependent on gameplay.

 

Reason to improve yourself.

 

News update: Dying sucks. Killing lots of people and winning games is fun. Good players are better at killing people and winning games. Behold, reason to improve yourself.

 

Trueskill was never meant to motivate you. It's meant to sort you. That's its purpose whether you like it or not.

 

Something to work for.

 

Once again you are showing your ignorance. I'm not trying to insult you, I am just pointing out that you are actually ignorant to some very important facts about Trueskill.

 

It's not there to motivate you. It's a "matchmaking" system in the most literal sense. It tries to match people up against others of similar skill. It's sorting you.

 

A satisfying feeling that makes everything worth while, a feeling you didn't get in other FPS games and for that reason it made Halo unique.

 

Halo made Halo unique. If ranked playlists were so key to the game, why is it that Halo was monstrously successful BEFORE 1-50 ranking? If 1-50 ranks are so essential to succes, why have other games surpassed Halo in sales when they never had visible Trueskill?

 

I loved Halo 3. That game's multiplayer was and is the greatest joy I've had on Xbox Live. Please quit insulting it by pretending it had nothing going for it other than visible Trueskill. It had gameplay miles ahead of other shooters at the time, and the reason other shooters caught up in sales is because their developers caught up. Suddenly shooter fans had options, which they didn't really have before because Halo was the only shooter on the market with multiplayer that solid. Suddenly fans of different types of gameplay had different games to choose from, which they had but none of the other shooters had Halo 3's production values.

 

 

Also FYI every single person who says there weren't that many "derankers" in Halo 3 didn't play enough Halo 3. The amount of people actually deliberately lowering their level on their gamertag wasn't that high, but there were tons of people who would make new gamertags.

 

I played that game for something like 2 1/2 years, eventually you would see someone on a secondary account every other game. Since they could see Trueskill they figured out that if they just wanted to rape noobs all day then all they had to do was make 30-day trial accounts. Those trial accounts would start at level 1 in all playlists and so they could go into matchmaking and wreck lower level players for awhile before the system figured them out. Once it figured them out they'd just jump to a different playlist for a bit. Once the account's level was too high they'd just make another.

 

Those idiots made life miserable for everyone below a certain level (I'm guessing level 40ish), suddenly "competitive" visible Trueskill doesn't sound so competitive, does it? It sounds like a way of teaching players to abuse the system without directly teaching them anything, you just make the information available. Trueskill is not meant for you to see, so for it to work properly you aren't supposed to see it.

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If you're talking about 1-50 from Halo 2 my post isn't about that. I didn't play enough Halo 2 online to know anything about that. I played plenty of Halo 3 though, and if you're talking about THAT 1-50 then you're talking about visible Trueskill.

 

Here's the problem with visible Trueskill:

 

Trueskill isn't supposed to be visible.

 

That's really all there is to it.

 

But to gently address your arguments...

 

 

 

Good deep gameplay gives games depth. Layers of complexity also give games depth, but when they are the source of depth it's debatable whether that is "good" depth. You could make a very complex game that was utterly boring, and while I'm sure it would be very "deep," I might contest the value of depth at that point.

 

 

 

Trueskill is present whether it's visible or not. Showing it to players increases their interest in controlling it (That's what gamers do, they use information they have to gain an edge). The point is the system is trying to make matches fair whether you see it working or not, and in fact it's less effective if you CAN see it.

 

As for "Everyone will enjoy" that again is entirely dependent on gameplay.

 

 

 

News update: Dying sucks. Killing lots of people and winning games is fun. Good players are better at killing people and winning games. Behold, reason to improve yourself.

 

Trueskill was never meant to motivate you. It's meant to sort you. That's its purpose whether you like it or not.

 

 

 

Once again you are showing your ignorance. I'm not trying to insult you, I am just pointing out that you are actually ignorant to some very important facts about Trueskill.

 

It's not there to motivate you. It's a "matchmaking" system in the most literal sense. It tries to match people up against others of similar skill. It's sorting you.

 

 

 

Halo made Halo unique. If ranked playlists were so key to the game, why is it that Halo was monstrously successful BEFORE 1-50 ranking? If 1-50 ranks are so essential to succes, why have other games surpassed Halo in sales when they never had visible Trueskill?

 

I loved Halo 3. That game's multiplayer was and is the greatest joy I've had on Xbox Live. Please quit insulting it by pretending it had nothing going for it other than visible Trueskill. It had gameplay miles ahead of other shooters at the time, and the reason other shooters caught up in sales is because their developers caught up. Suddenly shooter fans had options, which they didn't really have before because Halo was the only shooter on the market with multiplayer that solid. Suddenly fans of different types of gameplay had different games to choose from, which they had but none of the other shooters had Halo 3's production values.

 

 

Also FYI every single person who says there weren't that many "derankers" in Halo 3 didn't play enough Halo 3. The amount of people actually deliberately lowering their level on their gamertag wasn't that high, but there were tons of people who would make new gamertags.

 

I played that game for something like 2 1/2 years, eventually you would see someone on a secondary account every other game. Since they could see Trueskill they figured out that if they just wanted to rape noobs all day then all they had to do was make 30-day trial accounts. Those trial accounts would start at level 1 in all playlists and so they could go into matchmaking and wreck lower level players for awhile before the system figured them out. Once it figured them out they'd just jump to a different playlist for a bit. Once the account's level was too high they'd just make another.

 

Those idiots made life miserable for everyone below a certain level (I'm guessing level 40ish), suddenly "competitive" visible Trueskill doesn't sound so competitive, does it? It sounds like a way of teaching players to abuse the system without directly teaching them anything, you just make the information available. Trueskill is not meant for you to see, so for it to work properly you aren't supposed to see it.

 

The ranking system in Halo 3 did a lot more then just sort players out.

 

Like I said it gave you something to work for, the goal in multiplayer is to rank up and you couldn't get to a General or a Brigadier unless you got a 50 or 45. It did motivate you to become a better player but now Reach and H4 do not motivate you to become better, you get a lot of credits if you win or lose. When I think about it I don't know any Halo player that is really good that started playing in Reach, all the good players I know are good because the grew as players while battling through the ranks in H3 or H2.

When I was matched up against Inheritors in Halo Reach they were usually pretty bad players, because they boosted the challenges and played firefight all day, is that what Halo should be?

 

I had the best gaming experience of my life in Halo 3, it was a great game but what made it special for me and many others was the competition. I could not wait to start fresh in Halo Reach when it came out, but there was no ranking system and now I had the same disappointment with Halo 4.

 

Having the system not visible would not get rid of derankers, because they derank or make new accounts to play against noobs. All it does is make it less valuable to the players.

 

PS: Halo 2 ranking system was 1-50, it just had pictures instead of numbers

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i wish they would come back with 1-50 just because some losers have to derank and sell account shouldnt ruin it for the people who want it. simple fix to deranking and selling, if they are deranking ban them. if they sell the account find out where it was last downloaded if it does not match the last location then ban the account. not hard to fix those issues but its up to 343 to fix them, bungie never seemed to care about it that much i guess. even tho i know they banned a friend of mine because he was a loser who deranked!

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Having the system not visible would not get rid of derankers, because they derank or make new accounts to play against noobs. All it does is make it less valuable to the players.

 

Really? Have you been wrecked by a lot of SR9s lately? The absence of visible Trueskill combined with the fact that you don't have any decent stuff you don't unlock has actually taken most of the fun out of making new accounts for players. One of the things they enjoyed most was doing well in ranked playlists, because everyone knew that ranked stats were more legit than social stats, so without the ranked playlists motivating them, I think you again don't know what you're talking about. No offense, but it's kind of a theme I see with people arguing for visible Trueskill.

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My views on this topic are well known by now by many on these forums thus I wont repeat them here. I just have one thing to say however...

 

Halo CE.. no ranking system. By far (in my eyes) the most competitive Halo MP game to date...

 

Ranking systems do not mean competition.

 

Also on that note, if people are saying that a ranking system is the core of Halo then they miss the entire purpose of the game... which is sad to me.

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you either have rank and social and revive halo 4 or Let halo 4 gather dust. halo 4 is not competitive no one does anything in this game. no one has mics, No one uses teamwork theres none of that and its only month 3 or 4 of the game. this has turned into a game you play it one or 2 games and just put it away for weeks.

 

there needs to be a ranking system in this game i didn't play halo 2 or CE but i played halo 3. I started out a legit 30 and 2 years in i got my first 50. the first year of halo out of 50 matches i would find maybe 4 games with derankers boosters ect. late in the game it increased but that is bungie issue. they have turned this game to be identical to cod which forced lots of people away.

Really? Have you been wrecked by a lot of SR9s lately? The absence of visible Trueskill combined with the fact that you don't have any decent stuff you don't unlock has actually taken most of the fun out of making new accounts for players. One of the things they enjoyed most was doing well in ranked playlists, because everyone knew that ranked stats were more legit than social stats, so without the ranked playlists motivating them, I think you again don't know what you're talking about. No offense, but it's kind of a theme I see with people arguing for visible Trueskill.

accutaly I have seen alot of people do this just for k/d sake. the apperent true skill in game does not work.

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Really? Have you been wrecked by a lot of SR9s lately? The absence of visible Trueskill combined with the fact that you don't have any decent stuff you don't unlock has actually taken most of the fun out of making new accounts for players. One of the things they enjoyed most was doing well in ranked playlists, because everyone knew that ranked stats were more legit than social stats, so without the ranked playlists motivating them, I think you again don't know what you're talking about. No offense, but it's kind of a theme I see with people arguing for visible Trueskill.

 

If you do not understand the significance of ranks you will never understand the importance of the ranking system. Halo 2 was the prime of matchmaking ranks and Halo 3 had a large amount of success with it as well. As for your argument to "trueskill isn't supposed to be visible," then why would Bungie and 343 make it visible? (Ranking system soon to be visible in Waypoint)

I'm not seeing any basis for that statement of yours.

 

If ranking isn't important for knowing where someone stands, or isn't something to work for, then why would they have rankings in college football, the military, college basketball, etc.? Those rankings are to show where one team/person stands among the rest and rankings are important to many other subjects other than those I just listed. Do college teams strive for a top 25 rank or even a #1 rank? Of course they do and the same goes for people striving to go up the totem pole in workplaces and the military. I'm not comparing Halo to college athletics, the workplace, or the military, but the concepts of rank in all those examples are essentially the same. To say rank isn't important to Halo or isn't important for the motivation to become better, is a lie.

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can't understand why anyone is against the 1-50 ranking system like halo3 , as quite simply if they did introduce it, it would go in a ranked playlist which no one is forced to play...

 

someone said that the ranks should not be visible? Why not? how do you know if you're ranked good or bad? lol

if you've played well enough to achieve a high rank, why shouldn't you be able to show it off?

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a visable rank from 1-50 is what seperates the Men from the animals,

the AR/Boltshot/camo spamming BKs from the real Spartens.

 

There was a place for the "casual players" to go and play care free Halo and it was called the SOCIAL PLAYLIST. mindlessly playing a game till my exp bar hits SR130 means nothing to me, and anyone else who has any skill in this game. Just like Reach, there is ZERO will to actually win the game in Halo 4. for ex. I win, cool i get 2600-2800 exp. oh dam i lost i get 2200-2300.... :\

 

The lack of a Visable/accuarate rank from 1-50 is not the only problem. i can get over the fact that Bas kids can reach max rank like everyone else and will always love their Bolt Shots, Assault riffles and their annoying AA's. Cough* camo... but if i cant look at my rank and instantly feel better then them then what is the point. i miss the good old days when i could join a lobby with my 50 and know that i could open up a can of woop-*** on most the people in the playlist.

 

Also i know im speaking for a large group of people when i say that team work in halo is dead. I dont play with any of my buddies much anymore. We keep saying to eachother, "once 1-50 comes out we"ll rip some Doubles/MLG/ slayer etc." but until then me and my friends can just play mindless slayer getting "points" to climb the ladder to SR130.

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If you do not understand the significance of ranks you will never understand the importance of the ranking system. Halo 2 was the prime of matchmaking ranks and Halo 3 had a large amount of success with it as well. As for your argument to "trueskill isn't supposed to be visible," then why would Bungie and 343 make it visible? (Ranking system soon to be visible in Waypoint)

I'm not seeing any basis for that statement of yours.

 

If your only argument is "It must be right because someone did it once" then I'm not going to waste time constructing a response.

 

I get tired of people arguing for this saying "you have no basis" when I just spent awhile making a post that explains things to you. Go look up Trueskill, learn about it, or quit asking for it.

 

Nowhere in that link does it say "You aren't supposed to see it" but nowhere in that link does it say "You ARE supposed to see it." The choice is up to each developer, and the problems Halo 3 had with it combined with the problems other games DON'T have WITHOUT showing it is the start of my argument. The rest of my argument comes from a design-based understanding of the system and how seeing it isn't part of its original design, so seeing it keeps it from working properly.

 

I make my arguments based on facts, experience, and my interpretation of those facts and experience. I have plenty of basis for my statements, it's why I make the statements.

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TC, I'm with you. Call me ignorant, but a visible skill system has always been a great form of motivation for me. I've been playing Halo online for almost 11 years on LAN, XBConnect, Gamespy, and XBL. Halo 2 was the best I've experienced in competitive teamwork matchmaking.

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Why can't anyone ever make moderate statements.

 

1-50 system DOES help motivate players quite a bit, but is not the ONLY thing that motivates them. There is still plenty of drive to "win" for most players in H4 and R, just not as much as in ranked 2 and 3.

 

1-50 leads to SOME problems with boosters and derankers, however, if you are 40+, you should be good enough so that you can hold your own against 99% of players to some degree, and it wont matter who boosts and who doesn't. Furthermore, at least where I live, MS has made it so that 1 month cards are no longer sold, presumably to limit the steamrollers. If a guy wants to start a smurf account, he needs to fork over 20 bucks, and for the better part of those 3 months, the system will figure him out.

 

If they're going to have your own 1-50 visible on a website, it should be visible in the game. No real logic there. I personally think they should make everyone's visible, AFTER the game. That would eliminate the "Hurr, he's 49, 48, 50, and 49, so statistically we should lose this game..." crap. But, it would allow you once again to see where you stand among your enemy after the game.

 

I'll say this.

 

Players communicated and tried a lot harder in H3 to win in the 40+ range than any other game ever. You could play some pretty good games in social (Used 1-50 too, invisible and lightly), or play some really intense games in Ranked. It's true. Most players no longer use mice. 1-50 would improve this.

 

Really, the benefits pretty vastly outweigh the harms. The people who so desperately want it, get it. The people who don't want it don't have to play it.

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If you're talking about 1-50 from Halo 2 my post isn't about that. I didn't play enough Halo 2 online to know anything about that. I played plenty of Halo 3 though, and if you're talking about THAT 1-50 then you're talking about visible Trueskill.

 

Here's the problem with visible Trueskill:

 

Trueskill isn't supposed to be visible.

 

That's really all there is to it.

 

Trueskill is present whether it's visible or not. Showing it to players increases their interest in controlling it (That's what gamers do, they use information they have to gain an edge). The point is the system is trying to make matches fair whether you see it working or not, and in fact it's less effective if you CAN see it.

 

News update: Dying sucks. Killing lots of people and winning games is fun. Good players are better at killing people and winning games. Behold, reason to improve yourself.

 

Trueskill was never meant to motivate you. It's meant to sort you. That's its purpose whether you like it or not.

 

It's not there to motivate you. It's a "matchmaking" system in the most literal sense. It tries to match people up against others of similar skill. It's sorting you.

 

Halo made Halo unique. If ranked playlists were so key to the game, why is it that Halo was monstrously successful BEFORE 1-50 ranking? If 1-50 ranks are so essential to succes, why have other games surpassed Halo in sales when they never had visible Trueskill?

 

 

I agree completely.

 

I dont want visible true skill. People think that this is a good idea but it will just bring back all of the same problems that we had in Halo 3. If you want to see a skill rank, look no further than www.halotracker.com.

 

I think people just want something to blame for not doing well in game. I know. I've been there. "I did bad that game because of lthis person on my team" or some other excuse. Sometimes that truly was the case but other times I will realize later on that there was probably something that I could have done different to have performed better. But I digress.

 

Visible true skill is not necessary. It is there. It is working. You can probably beat those people that just beat you. Maybe it was your team. Maybe it was just your performance that game or maybe you just haven't been sorted correctly yet. The system needs data to establish an average for your skill. Keep playing. The more you play the better it should get. Be patient.

 

You cant compare an online video game ranking system to college football. Stop dat.

 

I do however agree with whoever it was (too lazy to quote) that raised the point that there is really no danger from an illegitimate 50 simply because they dont have the actual skill to perform at that level. Illegitimate low ranks may be a bit of a problem for unskilled players, but...hey. Nothing is perfect.

 

Either way it goes, I've been having fun with Halo 4. The biggest problem with the game that I see is insta-spawn. This changed the fundamentals of Halo deeply. There are threads in these and other forums that describe problems caused by this system at length. Its off-topic so I wont go any further than saying that I recommend everyone check them out and I challenge you to disagree that Halo is worse for that reason.

 

Happy Halo-ing everyone!

 

:wave:

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I agree completely.

 

I dont want visible true skill. People think that this is a good idea but it will just bring back all of the same problems that we had in Halo 3. If you want to see a skill rank, look no further than www.halotracker.com.

 

I think people just want something to blame for not doing well in game. I know. I've been there. "I did bad that game because of lthis person on my team" or some other excuse. Sometimes that truly was the case but other times I will realize later on that there was probably something that I could have done different to have performed better. But I digress.

 

Visible true skill is not necessary. It is there. It is working. You can probably beat those people that just beat you. Maybe it was your team. Maybe it was just your performance that game or maybe you just haven't been sorted correctly yet. The system needs data to establish an average for your skill. Keep playing. The more you play the better it should get. Be patient.

 

You cant compare an online video game ranking system to college football. Stop dat.

 

I do however agree with whoever it was (too lazy to quote) that raised the point that there is really no danger from an illegitimate 50 simply because they dont have the actual skill to perform at that level. Illegitimate low ranks may be a bit of a problem for unskilled players, but...hey. Nothing is perfect.

 

Either way it goes, I've been having fun with Halo 4. The biggest problem with the game that I see is insta-spawn. This changed the fundamentals of Halo deeply. There are threads in these and other forums that describe problems caused by this system at length. Its off-topic so I wont go any further than saying that I recommend everyone check them out and I challenge you to disagree that Halo is worse for that reason.

 

Happy Halo-ing everyone!

 

:wave:

 

There is some sort of system hidden in the game that tries to match you up with people with similar skill but it sure as hell doesn't work. I have almost 1.9 k/d because I am matched up against noobs time and time again while I have 10.000 Halo matches under my belt. I love Halo but I don't enjoy playing Halo 4 because maybe 1 out of every 10 matches are good games.

I am tired of people saying there is a working trueskill system in Halo 4, because there really isn't.

And yes I have played enough games for the system to work (SR-78)

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I am tired of people saying there is a working trueskill system in Halo 4, because there really isn't.

 

 

Lol there really is. Yours is around 41 according to Halotracker, I took the liberty of looking it up.

 

Halotracker =/= 343 or Halo 4 Matchmaking, but there IS Trueskill active in Halo 4 Matchmaking. This is why I originally alluded to the futility of talking to you about this stuff, because for some reason everyone I've met who argues for visible Trueskill has this really high resistance to facts.

 

Trueskill is the matchmaking system that works behind the scenes in competitive multiplayer titles on Xbox Live. I don't think it's active in games like BF3 which are based on having servers to join and such (The matchmaking is much more voluntary in that game), but it's active in Halo 4, was active in Halo Reach, and most of the other titles where the matchmaking is done via an automated system.

 

You're probably getting matched up with people who are having a bad game or you have someone on your team that's messing up the rating of the match, OR you're having bad experiences in playlists where your Trueskill isn't as accurate (You haven't played as many games in that playlist). Or you're just matching up with people like me who have not adapted to Halo 4 yet and leveled up based on team work or other factors that have less to do with Halo 4 and translate well across multiple games.

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You cant compare an online video game ranking system to college football. Stop dat.

 

Did I not say, "I'm not comparing Halo to college athletics, the workplace, or the military, but the concepts of rank in all those examples are essentially the same."?

 

Even though I was only comparing the importance and concept of rank between examples, Halo is a sport like anything else. If you don't believe me, here is the merriam webster definition for sport:

 

1. sport (noun): a source of diversion: recreation

 

Halo is indeed a sport and almost every single person uses the game for recreation and a source of diversion, just like any other sport.

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