MasterShotgunz Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 I like the BR. Nough said 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixWaysToSunday Posted February 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 So, towards the argument that bloom adds realism, not exactly. IMO halo isnt suppose to be realistic. Its suppose to be fun and cartoony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uJJyDmPXTamFFxRPNtzs Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I have had alot of experience playing all of the Halo games and I have to say that my performance in Reach versus my skills in the other is incomparable. Bloom has decided the outcome of a match for me more than a few times and I for one would like to see it removed from any further installation of Halo. This mechanic makes using the sniper rifle and other med-long range rifles extremely difficult, because once the target is aware they are being shot at bloom lets them duck into cover. This annoys me to no end. Bloom needs to go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandiBunni Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I have had alot of experience playing all of the Halo games and I have to say that my performance in Reach versus my skills in the other is incomparable. Bloom has decided the outcome of a match for me more than a few times and I for one would like to see it removed from any further installation of Halo. This mechanic makes using the sniper rifle and other med-long range rifles extremely difficult, because once the target is aware they are being shot at bloom lets them duck into cover. This annoys me to no end. Bloom needs to go away. Bloom doesn't really effect the sniper rifle. By the time the bloom and reticule has reset, you're finally able to take the next shot. I don't have any problem using things like the DMR and Needle Rifle. They're not extremely difficult for me to use. I time my shots properly, and I'm able to win my battles. If you don't want the bloom to affect your shots, you need to learn how to pace them better. I personally don't have much of an issue with bloom, because I know that when I pace my shots properly as well as out-maneuver my opponent, I'll be the victor regardless. With the title update, spamming is less effective, and I've noticed that the more I spam, the more I seem to be punished by it. If you're getting hot and bothered about bloom, you need to learn to control the way you fire better. Timing your shots the proper way in the proper situation is only one factor in winning a battle. The others are out-maneuvering, effectively using grenades and your environment, strafing well, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeteranOND Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 IMO halo isnt suppose to be realistic. Its suppose to be fun and cartoony. Exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Tyrael Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I dont like bloom all to much either but i try and not complain about it i get a kill or not always have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highplainsdrifter Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 SixWaysToSunday, thanks btw, i meant to thank you earlier So far from what i have thought from playing TU ZB Beta is that the weapons get unbalanced unless you are playing in extreme close quarters. We all love the arcade feel of Halo and much of that is found in the weapons available, with zero bloom i feel like the only weapon that really gets used or can be used to get a kill with is the DMR. Yes i get more kills but i bypass every other weapon that isn't a power weapon or doesn't implement a DMR kill. Also i'm find the same thing i found in Halo 3, while the pace of the scoreboard is fast, the pace of actual gameplay seems 'slow'. I find I'm always in cover or have no chance of escaping some new shooter that enters the battle late. Fast gameplay to me is not spawning and dying and ending the game quickly, it's the ever complicating battles that involve a lot of action instead of a few shots. I agree with 85% bloom or perhaps revamped weapon strength/accuracy of all weapons in Halo 4 (pray to the gods of the elements). But one thing (somewhat related to this) I really don't want to see in the way of customization of weapons is the route COD and many other fps took, it would subtly eliminate the arcade (joyful) feel that Halo has managed to keep alive over the years. There is more to Halo (unlike many other games) than simply racking up kills. This forum has really grown on me but that's my opinion, and if you can argue it then respectfully i would really like a counter to it. hopefully they'll have forty billion playlists if they go ZB... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixWaysToSunday Posted February 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Bloom doesn't really effect the sniper rifle. By the time the bloom and reticule has reset, you're finally able to take the next shot. I don't have any problem using things like the DMR and Needle Rifle. They're not extremely difficult for me to use. I time my shots properly, and I'm able to win my battles. If you don't want the bloom to affect your shots, you need to learn how to pace them better. I personally don't have much of an issue with bloom, because I know that when I pace my shots properly as well as out-maneuver my opponent, I'll be the victor regardless. With the title update, spamming is less effective, and I've noticed that the more I spam, the more I seem to be punished by it. If you're getting hot and bothered about bloom, you need to learn to control the way you fire better. Timing your shots the proper way in the proper situation is only one factor in winning a battle. The others are out-maneuvering, effectively using grenades and your environment, strafing well, etc. Mystic bloom is rather unbalanced. In the other halos strafing, aim, and grenade placement were equally important and it took all to consistently defeat other players. But in Reach, controlling bloom is the most important skill and it takes a long long time to learn or master. Its really a turn off for the game and is one of the reasons why people left. I really agree with him, I have a 1.8 KDR in halo3 but a 1.1 in Reach because Im so bad with bloom. And Ive been playing it with my friends for an entire year, ive played it more than halo3. Even my friends have this issue, one of them is really good without bloom and can wreck but cant slay in reach at all. It was different if i felt like I was getting better, but I dont after so long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixWaysToSunday Posted February 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 SixWaysToSunday, thanks btw, i meant to thank you earlier So far from what i have thought from playing TU ZB Beta is that the weapons get unbalanced unless you are playing in extreme close quarters. We all love the arcade feel of Halo and much of that is found in the weapons available, with zero bloom i feel like the only weapon that really gets used or can be used to get a kill with is the DMR. Yes i get more kills but i bypass every other weapon that isn't a power weapon or doesn't implement a DMR kill. Also i'm find the same thing i found in Halo 3, while the pace of the scoreboard is fast, the pace of actual gameplay seems 'slow'. I find I'm always in cover or have no chance of escaping some new shooter that enters the battle late. Fast gameplay to me is not spawning and dying and ending the game quickly, it's the ever complicating battles that involve a lot of action instead of a few shots. I agree with 85% bloom or perhaps revamped weapon strength/accuracy of all weapons in Halo 4 (pray to the gods of the elements). But one thing (somewhat related to this) I really don't want to see in the way of customization of weapons is the route COD and many other fps took, it would subtly eliminate the arcade (joyful) feel that Halo has managed to keep alive over the years. There is more to Halo (unlike many other games) than simply racking up kills. This forum has really grown on me but that's my opinion, and if you can argue it then respectfully i would really like a counter to it. hopefully they'll have forty billion playlists if they go ZB... Highplains I agree with you, ZB is not the way to go. It makes the game way too fast and makes all other weapons useless. Instead Id rather return to the fire rate limiter of past halo games. What I want is 1 more dominant weapon that focuses on skill and other weapons that can quickly kill within their effect range. Yes thats exactly like Halo3 but I had alot of fun with that game and would rather return to it. We have a different opinion about how fast a game is. To me, dying alot does make a faster game for several reasons. It ends quickly, you have more chances to actually do something, and actions have consequences. I believe if your good enough you can cut down on deaths and sometimes not die at all. Thats what makes Halo so complicated to me, Im constantly trying to completely outskill my opponents and never die. Yes thats impractical, but Ive done it before and that is my ultimate goal. And I also agree with you about customizing weapons. Attachments and other modifications would only unbalance the game and make it appear even more like CoD than it does now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAtStateFarm Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Woa... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0nez169 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 U guys are goig into too much detail lol, i think its good, adds a little mOre skill and slows down the game a little 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinreaper Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I'm making an exception from my leave to answer this silly thread once and for all. I'll post the main response up later, with exact values taken from all Halo titles weapon tags, to show that bloom was in every title, what wepaons had what bloom setting, what exactly bloom is, and why you people still a year and a half later have trouble understanding or using bloom at all. Stay tuned! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinreaper Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Ok, so I don't have a good method for displaying the data to you guys so I am going to type it all. First off let me say that arguing about bloom being a good mechanic or not...is like arguing if oxygen is a good living material to rely on. It just is and always will be and has and always will be a part of everything. Bloom is such a tired old term that the community has spawned to interpret what is actuall known as by the developers, "Error Angle". The resting period of the "Error Angle" is known to developers as "Error Acceleration" and Error Deceleration". because I grow so tired of the constant communities silly names for these things, we are now officially going to call it what it is... "Error Angles". The only change in this is in Reach, where they changed the labels of them to "Accuracy" and "Recoil". Yes those are actual tag developer field names, but they provide the same effect as it's predicessors. Do not try to argue this because I will butt rape anyone who tries to.....if need be. Lets get started shall we? "error angles" have been in every single Halo title, period. Here is the run down of weapons that use it. But first, the wepaons that don't. Halo 1: Weapons without "Error Angles" (bloom) - Rocket Launcher, Plasma Pistol. Halo 2: Weapons without "Error Angles" (bloom) - Plasma Pistol, Rocket Launcher, Fuel Rod Halo 3 Weapons without "Error Angles" (bloom) - Plasma Pistol, Rocket launcher, Fuel Rod, Spartan laser Halo Reach Weapons without "Error" " 0 Recoil" (bloom) - Beam Rifle, Rocket launcher, Target Locator, Plasma Launcher, Grenade launcher, Plasma Pistol, Fuel Rod. Concussion Rifle, S. Laser Thats right. Every weapon that was listed has no "error" or recoil" (bloom) value defined. Every single one is listed as "0" which means there is no effect. Now on to the list that does contain it.... Halo 1: Assault Rifle: 0 (absolute Minimum vector the first projectile can hit) 0.0349066 (basic minimum error angle) 0.1134464 (maximum error angle) Needler: 0.0349066 0.0698132 0.0698132 pistol: 0 0.0034907 0.0349066 Plasma Rifle: 0 0.0087266 0.0872665 sniper rifle: 0 0.0087266 0.0087266 shotgun: 0 0.1745329 0.1745329 Halo 2: magnum 0 0.004363323 0.02617994 needler: 0.008726646 0.008726646 0.02617994 Battle Rifle: 0 0.005235988 0.01047198 Beam rifle: 0 0.008726646 0.008726646 Cov Carbine: Same as Battle Rifle Plasma rifle: 0 0.004363323 0.01308997 Shotgun: 0.03490658 0.1396263 0.1745329 SMG: 0.01745329 0.01745329 0.04799655 Sniper Rifle: 0 0.008726646 0.008726646 Brute Shot: 0.004363323 0.01047198 0.01047198 Halo 3: Magnum: 0.0008726646 0.008726646 0.008726646 Needler: 0 0 0.05235988 Assault rifle: 0.001745329 0.001745329 0.05235988 Battle Rifle: 0 0.002617994 0.008726646 Beam Rifle: 0 0.008726646 0.008726646 Cov Carbine: 0 0.005235988 0.0147198 Plasma rifle: 0 0.008726646 0.02181662 Shotgun: Defined as all 0, but projectile tag has error defined SMG: 0.004363323 0.02181662 0.04799655 Sniper Rifle: 0 0.008726646 0.008726646 Spiker: 0 0.008726646 0.02181662 Brute Shot: 0.002617994 0.006981317 0.006981317 Halo Reach: Plasma Rifle 0 0.004363323 0.01308997 Assault Rifle 0.004363323 0.008726646 0.04363323 Magnum 0 0.008726646 0.05235988 Plasma Repeater 0 0.008726646 0.01745329 Brute Spiker 0 0.008726646 0.02181662 Needle Rifle 0 0.005235988 0.01396263 Sniper Rifle 0 0.008726646 0.01745329 Needler 0 0 0.0008726646 DMR 0.002617994 0.006981317 0.006981317 Shotgun 0 0 0 Projectile roor defined in projectile tag Now that you have the actual tag values from the weapons, according to the data itself, you can see how every weapon functions with the values defined when you use it in-game. This also brings to mind, the old debate about which weapons were better, H2 or H3 BR, and DMR vs BR. Conclusively according to the data, at tag default values, not TU ones, the BR from halo 3 would beat out the DMR in terms of accuracy and power. You can check for yourselves the actual damage modifier values located in eachs' respective [proj] tag. I dont have time to hold your hands .... So there you have it folks, a complete rundown on what you will still call (bloom), that IT IS IN EVERY HALO GAME PERIOD. One more thing. I believe I read in this thread that Reach was built around the bloom mechanic. Well I got news for you, the game is built around the engine. Weapons don't even get seriously handled until about 3/4 of the campaign is finished. Weapons and how they function are created around the campaign and mutiplayer aspected assets that are already in-game and mostly 99% complete. What kind of assanign statement is that to make...that the whole game is built around the weapons functions with bloom?!? Perhaps you should go read the myriad of journals available from various developers about how the whole process works. And with that, I bid you all a restfull night. Sleep well knowing that I AM BACK!!!!!!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixWaysToSunday Posted February 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 So there you have it folks, a complete rundown on what you will still call (bloom), that IT IS IN EVERY HALO GAME PERIOD. One more thing. I believe I read in this thread that Reach was built around the bloom mechanic. Well I got news for you, the game is built around the engine. Weapons don't even get seriously handled until about 3/4 of the campaign is finished. Weapons and how they function are created around the campaign and mutiplayer aspected assets that are already in-game and mostly 99% complete. What kind of assanign statement is that to make...that the whole game is built around the weapons functions with bloom?!? Perhaps you should go read the myriad of journals available from various developers about how the whole process works. We were agreeing that bloom was in all the Halo games, what we were discussing is how they are different and effect the game in their unique ways. I said Reach is designed around bloom or error angle and I think I need to explain myself better. I did not mean that developers created bloom and then built the game, I was trying to say bloom is one of the core mechanics of the game and most decisions made by players are influenced largely by this version of bloom. I find a serious problem with that as this bloom is not an airtight mechanic and makes players angry and frustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinreaper Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Well error angles are both for campaign and multiplayer...players need to remember that. Imagine if Zero Bloom was used by all the AI in the campaign....you would get slaughtered and it would literally take you a year or more to successfully complete a level on Legendary. The AI as it is now, is very accurate and efficient enough to provide you a challenegr no matter your campaign experience. Keeping that in mind, there has to be a middle ground when it comes to the errors weapons throw when firing. creating solid secondary resources for multiplayer maps to use standalone is not a feesable development angle to go towards also. What I forgot to add to my post, and may anger soem players, is the fact that now..almost 2 years after playing...you still cannot adjust or change your ways. What I mean by that, is that after talking to many players about bloom and how they hate it, I surmize that on a mental level, players who hate bloom simply have this underlying subconsious reaction to overfocus or turn their attention towards the expanding reticule. It is not on purpose, but because this is new and more focused on in the HUD as compared to it's rare use in halo 3, it is simply an uncontrollable reaction that I believe many gamers may not even realize. I am not a psychiatric practitioner, so it would be up to an actual psychiatrist to determine, but the research suggests it on my part. For those who hate bloom, and simply cant seem to get their minds off it, here is a short excersice. Play Halo CEA thru Reach...every single title.....on campaign and multi player and use the "blind" skull. Get used to a few weeks of playing without using any reticule at all, then go back and play standard Reach. I am willing to bet by then after training yourself to look past the reticule and HUD in general, you will see much more accuracy and no underlaying nagging feeling that you are focused too much on pacing or the accuracy...at least that what has happened to me. I still can't outhink my opponents for jack ****, but at least bloom has never once been any type of issue for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armored penguin Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 i personaly like the tu kind of bloom but not so much zero bloom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerribleTimbo Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Bloom can be good if it is implemented correctly and not how it was with Reach. But I prefer my Halo games with no bloom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinreaper Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Timbo you obviously failed tk read my post and the extracted weapon values correctly. As you can see from the values there is not much difference in most of the weapons. actually in Reach you are able to.control the bloom better than in previous titles. This is because there was a predefined max and min setting for them and each time you pulled the trigger it increased based on the time that elapsed. in reach each trigger pull increases the innaccuracy at a set amount each time with a nice low.cool.down period. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerribleTimbo Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Ok, I'll bite. I didn't talk about the feature in previous Halo titles because you flat out can't tell it's implemented unless you're shooting at a wall from a distance then walk up to it to see the bullet spread (thus I consider them to be "bloomless"). Reach, on the other hand, upped the randomness factor but not enough to implement it correctly. They should have either left it to be almost non apparent, like in previous Halos, or made the bullet spread so great that people spamming shouldn't have any hope of actually landing a shot. Reach failed just enough with this feature to greatly annoy those who actually tried to time their shots to give themselves the best chance to win their battle while also rewarding those who continuously spam their shots (not a tremendously high win percentage, but still way higher than it should be). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinreaper Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Ok since you have shown an interest, I will explain. When it comes to anything bloom at all, the only people who have a complaint or complain about it in general are doing so simply becasue they do not have a BR style weapon to use in-game. I understand that many people loved their BR and presicion weapon using...but just as the jump from Halo 1 to halo 2 with the pistol...it's all about adapting. When I say that Reach got the "error" right is that for the first time in a Halo game, the amount of bloom happening was flatly dictated out as a steady value, rather than a random increase due to only having a basic "min" and "max" value. In Reach they define the base min error as such...but the real trick comes in during the "accuracy field". In the accuracy field it dictates that a shot every (this is an avaergae defined number across all weapons) .8 seconds, the bloom or "error" increases the number defined in the "accuracy field". So rather than a shot from the DMR randonly going such and such an angle...it actually goes a set amount every time. Now the angle in which the error is thrown, also uses an "uncalculated constarint" to properly derive the vector in which the projectile will travel. The reason it is an "Uncalculated Constraint", is because they do not differ from weapon to weapon. hence why it is uncalculated; because it is a pre-defined constant and requires no processor calculation to give it a vector. Now this is confusing yes, but the also the player movement is used to give vector as well. Like in many Halo games before crouching will give a weapon more accuracy. This is another value being used to determine vector and error angle. This number however is still not visible in the map structure, and more than likely is contained within the xex portion of the game. For those scratching your heads, the XEX is the game executablw which also houses the game engine. Further more, Reach in general was designed at it's core, to reward players with better accuracy via pacing, a better chance at winning out in battles. Using the whole "the guy spammed my body then got a lucky headshot" defense as a reason why bloom fails, is also the very statement that seperates the truly skille dplayer form the rest. A skilled player makes no excuses as to why he or she failed to come out victorous. A true skill player can sit back watch the replay and see where he/she went wrong and admit defeat...which in Halo is about as abundant as pigs that fly. Everyone states lucky shots and this and that. ANYONE CAN WIN ON ANY GIVEN DAY is the motto that must be remembered. If someone is spamming your body then headshotting you, why arent you doing the same.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerribleTimbo Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Ok I think we all get that from a technical standpoint it was implemented correctly by giving it set values and such. But when it is actually in action, it fails. The point I tried to make is that they didn't up the "randomness" of it enough if they wished to make it a core mechanic in the game. If someone is spamming, the should be able to hit the first 2, maybe 3, shots before the values under the hood get so crazy that they should literally have less than a 1% chance of hitting a single shot, let alone being able to finish you off by spamming. That's how the feature should work when implemented fully, not how it was when Reach was shipped. Anyone pacing their shots correctly should win more than 99% of the time, but that isn't the case with Reach and thus why people complain about it. And for the record, I do spam close range or when I know I won't win a battle just because the chances of landing a shot are favorable when doing so in Reach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixWaysToSunday Posted February 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Ive been too busy to reply, sorry. Twin, can you really explain to me how bloom makes halo a better experience? Because I cant think of a sound argument for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinreaper Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Seriously? Thats your big question to see if I can answer it properly. Obviously you forget that yet again, bloom has been in every game and even the original....in which a large majority agree was the best and now most wanted multiplayer experience back. How about instead, you bloom trollers come up with a well thought out and explanative post about how it is bad....cause i uave yet to read one single post that shows anything but personal opinion based on isolated experiences. I think every post I have made shows quite clearly why bloom has always been around and how it works and why it is a good mechanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinreaper Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Look OP you obviously have some sort of.issue with yourself. yoh yourself just admitted that you spam.close.range then finish someone off.....what goes around comes around. Halo is not about a high moral code.or.some.other bull****...so get off your high horse. you know absokutely nothing about mechanics in halo or how they are implimented. your perspective is entirely one sided since you lack the knowledge to see for yourself how the engine is designed and used. Dont bull**** me with your pwtty .....oh but i play alot so i know what i am talking about mentality......... I have clearly explained "error angles" more times than i had originally cared too. Can a moderator lock this turd of a thread please.....I see it serving no helpfull purpose by leaving it open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planet Etrius Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Some people are mostly indifferent and some people are more sensitive to details like these. But what a lot the hard core players don't get is that they're asking for something that is divinely perfect and can only continue to stagnate in the future. "The better player should win everytime!", ok but why do you think your judgement of what makes a better player is universal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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