Petition to Add Lag Compensation Damper System

[Unseenz]

Disclaimer: I am by no means discrediting what 343 has done, "crying", or stating "THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE OR I QUIT" I am only trying to add a suggestion and I put time and thought into this post so please, have the same courtesy when replying, voting, or giving your suggestions.

 

Hello Community,

 

I created a similar topic, in the general thread but feel that this thread for matchmaking is the better thread for a topic like this, seeing as this heavily involves the matchmaking system, etc.

 

I want to first start out by saying that the lag compensation in the game right now is kind of game breaking. At times you feel like a boss out DMR-ing people, etc. and at other times you get the "WTF" just happened moment when the person out DMRs you and in the kill cam he is looking at the wall.

 

I have an immense amount of experience in First Person Shooter games ranging from the (arguably most competititve) CounterStrike to the fun but still awesome BF3. I have been a fan of Halo for years and played at high levels in H2 (level 46 slayer legit) , H3 (multiple level 50s) and Reach (Onyx ranks). (The only reason I stated this was to give a foundation so that I do not get laughed out of the forum for being "bad" or "you just cannot aim", etc.

 

Right now, we have something called lag compensation in the Halo 4 matchmaking system. This is a good mechanic. It needs to be in any modern game, it has been in games for years now and even other competititve shooters, such as, Counterstrike have come to develop the lag compensation system. Games that have succeeded in the implementation of this system allow for the user to "Damper" the lag compensation to meet the connection strength of the user. Games that have utterly failed in the lag compensation system are games, such as, MW3 that did not do this.

 

A simple change is needed, and it would cost 343 next to nothing to implement. A damper system should be put in place for lag compensation. Why? It would give people who have good connections the ability to turn down the compensation and people with not so good internet connections the ability to turn it up.

 

A system such as this would work:

 

In the options menu, 343 could add something that deals with connection (duh). The menu would have three options:

 

1) Low (for higher connections)

2) Medium (For mid-grade connections)

3) High (for connection speeds that are considerably slower)

 

Now I do not have numbers in front of me on connection speeds that would fit each category but for the purposes of this suggestion we could assume connections with a:

 

1) Low (connections with a rating of A to B )

2) Medium (connections with a rating of C)

3 High (connections with a rating of D to F)

 

These ratings could be obtained from speedtest.net and would allow 343 to implement a system that could suggest a damper for the user to select based on the following ratings or speeds. This would create a highly competitive and FAIR environment. The current lag compensation is not good, plain and simple. It catters to connections with lower connection speeds while punishing higher connection speeds. I am not the one to brag, but I have a B+ grade connection and I am lagging horribly during BR / DMR fights and this needs to stop. I have had instances where I get shot once, then the guy appears on my screen (well, lets do the math 1 second makes a difference in competitive play. You get one or two shotted before you can react you lose). I have read several posts that pertained to the kill cam showing people getting shot when they are not even being aimed at (this pertains to lag compensation).

 

 

Community, let us vote on the ADDITION of a damper/buff system for lag compensation which would establish a fair and consistent environment for online competititve play. 343 has done many things right, and I feel that this is the big one they need to NAIL.

 

 

Please keep the negative comments to the minimum and vote. We also do not need people crying out imbalances, flaming, or acting like a troll. Read this and understand this before you post to avoid negativity. We are all in this in the long run and 343 has had an extensive track record for listening to the community (i.e. Halo Anni. and Reach).

 

 

If you think there could be a better way to add something like this to the game, please share your insight.

 

Thank you community and happy gaming!

-UnSeEnz

 

EDIT: I forgot to add something, completely removing the lag compensation system is a NO. It needs to be in multiplayer gaming now to create more fair environments and having none is just... no. Plus it would be like reworking the ENTIRE network code and that is A)costly and like creating a whole new game. SO before you suggest "Remove l4g c0mpens4tion GRR" remember this. Plus, adding a dedicative server list is expensive, this is a less expensive awesome addition.

 

EDIT EDIT: I just realized how innovative Halo online play actually is comparably to most games, would it not be absolutely electrifying if they were to develop a system for lag compensation settings for consoles? I shiver at how awesome this could be. The best way to get 343 to listen is to vote and keep this thread alive.

 

 

 

Thanks for posting.

 

Halo 3 did have lag compensation but it was never this bad. Let's put it this way. Most modern games have lag compensation and it will never change, it cannot. It is not fair to people who may not be financially capable of purchasing better internet and it helps when people from other countries play with each other.

 

Now, what you are experiencing could quite possibly be lag. I do not know your skill level, nor do I want to "guess" what skill level you are but for the purposes of this discussion and suggestion I will give some light to it, using myself as an example.

 

For an example, I right now, have roughly a 2.0 KD (I think it is like 1.98) and I am a SR 42. I run into issues sporadically with the gameplay, namely when I play objective game types where a lot of things are going on. I notice, that sometimes when I am in games I am completely dominating people at a similar SR rank (I know SR rank does not = skill but w.e.) I then play games where it seems a little jittery and I am being out DMR'd by lower SR rank people. This is fine because some people have bad games, w.e. However, a trend arose from these types of games where I do statistically bad. The kill cam in these games are horrid. I watch myself get shot through walls, the guy/gal might be looking down on the ground and I just magically die, or it shows the person aiming up in the air and I just fall down on the ground.

 

This ladies and gentlemen, is lag compensation kicking in. Most games, I have no problem with the kill cam (the games I do well in) and the games I do horrid in show a 1 to 2 second delay of DMR shooting or firing (this could be br, ar, etc.)

 

I cannot express it enough that I am not whining or am displeased with the game. I love H4 but this is definitely game breaking. 1 to 2 seconds of lag compensation on someone with a good connection, means that someone with a bad connection is 1 or 2 seconds ahead of me, regardless of how I play I will die against any competent player.

 

Hope that brought some light to your concerns,

UnSeEnZ

[TRF BaDInTentZs]

Great post, this is something I have mentioned for years now.

[Unseenz]

Great post, this is something I have mentioned for years now.

 

Thank you, CounterStrike Source and GO have this option and look how successful those games are competitively. LAN games are done for tourneys but the online play is also dampered to fit the average gamer as well. This system also creates a sense of competitive play across all boards not just LAN matches, which also creates new pros

[HossyBGH]

Wow so THIS is what has been driving me absolutely insane! I have been wondering why I am generally so terrible with the DMR in this game, but yet from time to time I will have a game where I absolutely dominate and the gun feels perfect. I have not been this frustrated by a game for a long time. I have a question though. In the previous online Halo games, I have not felt this bipolar effect where my skill with a mid-long range weapon fluctuates wildly from game to game. Why is that? Did previous Halo games not have any lag compensation? Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I don't feel quite so enraged now.

[Echo of Sorrow]

Wow so THIS is what has been driving me absolutely insane! I have been wondering why I am generally so terrible with the DMR in this game, but yet from time to time I will have a game where I absolutely dominate and the gun feels perfect. I have not been this frustrated by a game for a long time. I have a question though. In the previous online Halo games, I have not felt this bipolar effect where my skill with a mid-long range weapon fluctuates wildly from game to game. Why is that? Did previous Halo games not have any lag compensation? Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I don't feel quite so enraged now.

And I thought it was just me.

[hyabusa420]

We need more voters

[Unseenz]

Wow so THIS is what has been driving me absolutely insane! I have been wondering why I am generally so terrible with the DMR in this game, but yet from time to time I will have a game where I absolutely dominate and the gun feels perfect. I have not been this frustrated by a game for a long time. I have a question though. In the previous online Halo games, I have not felt this bipolar effect where my skill with a mid-long range weapon fluctuates wildly from game to game. Why is that? Did previous Halo games not have any lag compensation? Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I don't feel quite so enraged now.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

Halo 3 did have lag compensation but it was never this bad. Let's put it this way. Most modern games have lag compensation and it will never change, it cannot. It is not fair to people who may not be financially capable of purchasing better internet and it helps when people from other countries play with each other.

 

Now, what you are experiencing could quite possibly be lag. I do not know your skill level, nor do I want to "guess" what skill level you are but for the purposes of this discussion and suggestion I will give some light to it, using myself as an example.

 

For an example, I right now, have roughly a 2.0 KD (I think it is like 1.98) and I am a SR 42. I run into issues sporadically with the gameplay, namely when I play objective game types where a lot of things are going on. I notice, that sometimes when I am in games I am completely dominating people at a similar SR rank (I know SR rank does not = skill but w.e.) I then play games where it seems a little jittery and I am being out DMR'd by lower SR rank people. This is fine because some people have bad games, w.e. However, a trend arose from these types of games where I do statistically bad. The kill cam in these games are horrid. I watch myself get shot through walls, the guy/gal might be looking down on the ground and I just magically die, or it shows the person aiming up in the air and I just fall down on the ground.

 

This ladies and gentlemen, is lag compensation kicking in. Most games, I have no problem with the kill cam (the games I do well in) and the games I do horrid in show a 1 to 2 second delay of DMR shooting or firing (this could be br, ar, etc.)

 

I cannot express it enough that I am not whining or am displeased with the game. I love H4 but this is definitely game breaking. 1 to 2 seconds of lag compensation on someone with a good connection, means that someone with a bad connection is 1 or 2 seconds ahead of me, regardless of how I play I will die against any competent player.

 

Hope that brought some light to your concerns,

UnSeEnZ

[Field of Mangos]

I'm not a network configuration guru, but it seems like this would open a whole can of worms. Back in H3, I know they did something similar to this because of the "shotgun lag"...basically two players shot at each other with a shotgun, whoever had the better connection would get the kill, regardless of small variations in timing of the shot. After the fix, the duel would essentially end in a tie, with both players dying.

 

Personally, I can think of 2, maybe 3 games so far where lag has been an issue to the point of competitiveness being noticably affected. In my opinion, this is where quitting out could be beneficial, since there is no penalty for doing so in H4. I understand that there's the whole issue of not wanting to leave a match if you're playing with friends, etc. I just feel that essentially evening the playing field, while a positive, would still lead to more complaining for the sake of complaining and is an issue best solved by the end user, not 343.

 

Also, lol @ OP. No need to list your rank in older Halo's to make your point. If anything, I think less of your post because you're trying to bolster the validity of your claims. If you can make a good point, it will stand up on it's own.

[Unseenz]

I'm not a network configuration guru, but it seems like this would open a whole can of worms. Back in H3, I know they did something similar to this because of the "shotgun lag"...basically two players shot at each other with a shotgun, whoever had the better connection would get the kill, regardless of small variations in timing of the shot. After the fix, the duel would essentially end in a tie, with both players dying.

 

Personally, I can think of 2, maybe 3 games so far where lag has been an issue to the point of competitiveness being noticably affected. In my opinion, this is where quitting out could be beneficial, since there is no penalty for doing so in H4. I understand that there's the whole issue of not wanting to leave a match if you're playing with friends, etc. I just feel that essentially evening the playing field, while a positive, would still lead to more complaining for the sake of complaining and is an issue best solved by the end user, not 343.

 

Also, lol @ OP. No need to list your rank in older Halo's to make your point. If anything, I think less of your post because you're trying to bolster the validity of your claims. If you can make a good point, it will stand up on it's own.

 

I just suggested under my topic to create a system without changing it completely. What you are describing with Halo 3 is a "ping-like" system, where better connection = win. HOWEVER, when you have lag compensation in a matchmaking game it creates issues more than just host gets first shot. The game becomes unplayable at times, and no its not just 1 or 2 games for me.

 

Umm, I actually do need to put my ranks for validity. Why? Because the Halo community generally would laugh at claims and call me "bad" because it is not happening to them.

[TRF BaDInTentZs]

I'm not a network configuration guru, but it seems like this would open a whole can of worms. Back in H3, I know they did something similar to this because of the "shotgun lag"...basically two players shot at each other with a shotgun, whoever had the better connection would get the kill, regardless of small variations in timing of the shot. After the fix, the duel would essentially end in a tie, with both players dying.

 

Personally, I can think of 2, maybe 3 games so far where lag has been an issue to the point of competitiveness being noticably affected. In my opinion, this is where quitting out could be beneficial, since there is no penalty for doing so in H4. I understand that there's the whole issue of not wanting to leave a match if you're playing with friends, etc. I just feel that essentially evening the playing field, while a positive, would still lead to more complaining for the sake of complaining and is an issue best solved by the end user, not 343.

 

Also, lol @ OP. No need to list your rank in older Halo's to make your point. If anything, I think less of your post because you're trying to bolster the validity of your claims. If you can make a good point, it will stand up on it's own.

 

Why quit if the playing field can be leveled? Also, sounds like someone's used to having host.

[Bigshot Eagle]

I am in the same boat as most people here. I don't want to brag but generally I am a really good player and I always used to get a positive K/D by miles but recently I have been lagging like crazy and I went from just about positive to neutral to negative. I just don't think it is very fair for a good player to become bad just based on connection because (As stated by the OP) it ruins the competitiveness of the game. Now some people may just say "Just leave" but this problem is in about 90% of my games and I either carry on, knowing that I will possibly do terrible or stay on spartan ops. This is one of the only games I lag in and this needs to be fixed.

[twistedforsaken]

FINALLY someone whos having the problem, i have the same problems at times i will dominate everyone and then other times im like wtf is going on? my guns take way to long to kill or someone can 2 shot me with a br? or i can throw a grenade at someones foot and they just walk through it unaffected. i hope they fix this or i may have to quit to.

[Unseenz]

FINALLY someone whos having the problem, i have the same problems at times i will dominate everyone and then other times im like wtf is going on? my guns take way to long to kill or someone can 2 shot me with a br? or i can throw a grenade at someones foot and they just walk through it unaffected. i hope they fix this or i may have to quit to.

 

See the problem is I do not want to quit. I love Halo, but the problem comes in when 343 tries to go the cheaper way out and not actually listen to people with lag issues. Look at the population right now, I know it is during the day but at night there is maybe 200k online. That is atrocious, they NEED to freaking address the lag issues or this game will surely die.

[Mischief Mike]

This is literally about to make me quit the game.

 

A lot of the time i can pump 6-7 shots of the DMR into the enemy and they still live to kill me, i don't mind being a tiny bit behind the Americans (we cant have it all) but when its quite blatantly this game breaking is just frustrating.

 

Unfortunately i'm about to say "screw it" and go play something more fair (along with 11 of my friends as well), and i love this game. have smashed out almost every achie for it.

 

PLEASE 343, SORT THIS OUT!! this is to good a game to let it die over something as simple to fix as this.

 

 

UPDATE: 15/11/2012

Thats it, we've decided to give BLOPS2 a try, haven't played one since the original Black ops but lets be honest, no way on this little green earth it can be any worse then this.

 

Since this game has released i have seen the player base drop by 75%. when it first came out there was on average 80-90k player in infinity slayer and big team infinity slayer. since BLOPS2 has come out its dropped to an average of 10-20k in each.

 

there's no way that this issue has absolutely nothing to do with that. (its a small part granted but still enough to turn people away from the game).

[Unseenz]

I also found out that frame rate lag can be accounted for if your xbox runs discs better than reading off of the hard drive. I just am really tired of this and consistently being teamed up against Final Boss (Halo pro team) and Company every single game. It is so frustrating I have to try my hardest to go positive....

[AU Carnage]

With the costs associated with game conception, development, distribution and marketing, the cost of servers is a pittance, clearly 343 are not interested in the gamers experience, just their money.

[Unseenz]

With the costs associated with game conception, development, distribution and marketing, the cost of servers is a pittance, clearly 343 are not interested in the gamers experience, just their money.

 

Potentially correct, that is why I started something like this to maybe get noticed slightly and considered. 343 has a track record for helping / listening to the community and they promised before Halo 4 was released they would do just that. We have to give these things some time.

[AcerbicSam]

Oh... I can feel a simmer down happening inside, I have been validated and I am not crazy.

 

But would doing away with the kill cams help, it seems like it would use extra resources?

 

Anyway thanks so much for the group therapy glad I am not going crazy by myself.

 

What causes gravel rash?

[ProudDrunkIrish]

Anything to improve the lag as for many i know at the moment it now exceeds that disaster called MW3, one of the things I loved about Halo more than anything else was free flowing mostly lag free gaming, in H3 I would know well before the end of a gun battle if i was going to be winner or loser it was that good.

 

So to 343 learn a little lesson if it aint broke don't fix it!!!

 

Also does anyone notice the lag getting worse, I have been playing from the release date and in the past few days (at a quiet time player numbers wise) I have had to quit games of BTB as it was unplayable. This did not happen when the servers were under most pressure strangely enough??

 

Also had the inconvenience of not being able to access the main servers one day, got thrown onto some back up thing, I have never really known anything like it tbh.

[LANCERZzZz]

I remember there being an option similar to this in BF3, and it completely changed gameplay from me. I went from basically shooting at blobs of lag that seemed to bounce all my bullets back at me to actually hitting everything I shot at. Halo definitely needs this, seeing as how in the last 4 games I tried to play (all of them on Adrift) the game was lagging so bad that the mancannon launched me off the side of the map almost every time I used it.

[TRF BaDInTentZs]

Yeah if you look at the wasted resources used for remaking CE, creating 2 websites both horribly done, and making a mini series, dedicated servers would be a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of those foul ups.

[LiQuid BioniX]

Of cours there should be a lag damper system. You think that 343 doesn't realize that "Hey, these games are lagging." 343 loves Halo, and they love the community, so I'm sure that they are working on it.

[narb777]

I too have noticed times I rock with the DMR and other times I die before I knew what hit me. From my point of view I was hit once, and before I could react was dead. The kill cam shows 6 or 7 shots coming my way (1/3 to 1/2 the screen away from my spartan sprite). I know this is from the lag compensation, I do networking for a living.

 

Problem with creating a lag compensation tool where the user can edit it is that the user can edit it...it is a great idea but will only create additonal problems. To be fair the only way this can really be done is for the matchmaking setup to actually perform latency tests (with the same type of packet and port that is used for gameplay) at the beginning of matchmaking and adjusting the lag compensation from there. This creates an incredible set of challenges:

 

Online games use UDP packets that have no error control or SYN/ACK relationship. This creates faster gameplay but if network conditions are bad what is displayed on your screen is not always the best snapshot of what is going on (lag jumps). By default most people try to know what their "ping" is. This is a very deceptive number. You may have a great ping to serverwithtonsofbandwidth.com but not to the decided host of the game. Also ping is ICMP data which can be routed with a priority different to UDP or TCP packets upstream from your router with no way of you knowing. Most home internet connections are asymettric..and as such have a different latency getting to and from a destination. There is also "jitter" or sway in your min/max ping times. Network conditions change during a game as the oher person in the house starts watching youtube during the game...etc. There are so many variables that make a user-controlled form of lag compensation adjustment not viable or reliable.

 

Maybe if they were to code in a UDP ping capability that is done behind the scenes and adjusted on the fly things would be better....truthfully...things would be much better if they were just to lower the thresholds for acceptable connections to each other....as it stands now...a lag compensation variable that is >= kill time with a standard loadout weapon is just asking for a ragefest.

[Final Sentence]

Do you also understand one of the biggest complaints from COD is how the lag compensation works and helps more than it hurts. I really dont see a problem with how the DMR performs, if I miss "I physically missed the shot"

 

If something like this was implemented into the system, a MISSED SHOT would hit it's target.

 

Yeah if you look at the wasted resources used for remaking CE, creating 2 websites both horribly done, and making a mini series, dedicated servers would be a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of those foul ups.

 

How so? They MADE money on all of this, they wouldn't have made a dime on dedicated servers. It's business, just understand that. You were going to buy the game either way, dedicated servers would just KEEP you playing it. They got their initial money, all map packs etc, are just bonuses if you buy them.

[TRF BaDInTentZs]

Excellent information and thank you!! Not quite short sleeve stuff but even I can get the gist of it.

 

Question: Would demanding a certain bandwidth up/down address some of these issues?

 

Do you also understand one of the biggest complaints from COD is how the lag compensation works and helps more than it hurts. I really dont see a problem with how the DMR performs, if I miss "I physically missed the shot"

 

If something like this was implemented into the system, a MISSED SHOT would hit it's target.

 

 

 

How so? They MADE money on all of this, they wouldn't have made a dime on dedicated servers. It's business, just understand that. You were going to buy the game either way, dedicated servers would just KEEP you playing it. They got their initial money, all map packs etc, are just bonuses if you buy them.

 

They should have been concentrating on making the next game instead of tinker toying around with something that was already done. Maybe they wouldn't have these massive complaints about a game that's only 1/2 completed and frankly, I think that's giving it entirely too much credit.