precision wepons vs automatic wepons

[Caboose The Ace]

post your thoughts

 

me ...... they have advages and disadvateges

 

ps i am a bad speller

[zexi]

Precision for skill players, Automatic for lesser skilled. It is ALWAYS true that a pro with a precision weapon will wreck someone using an automatic weapon. Also, most automatic weapons are CQC, white precision weapons tend to be mid range or longer.

[W01FE]

atm assuming top skill, precisions are better.

 

why?

 

their only limiting facot IS skill, or the persons ability to make the shots land at medium/close range.

 

to a extend a automatic weapon user has to do this too, especially with burst fire at medium range.

 

however, no matter how skilled you are you cant land hits at long range with automatic weapons, obviously there is no REAL penalty for hitting htem at close range with precision weapons, that again...cant be overcome with player skill.

 

to fix this imo automatic weapons need straight up faster ttk in close range combat, therefore precision weapons get punished for letting automatics get close, just as automatics are punished everytime they peek out of cover.

[MegaLowVoltage]

atm assuming top skill, precisions are better.

 

why?

 

their only limiting facot IS skill, or the persons ability to make the shots land at medium/close range.

 

to a extend a automatic weapon user has to do this too, especially with burst fire at medium range.

 

however, no matter how skilled you are you cant land hits at long range with automatic weapons, obviously there is no REAL penalty for hitting htem at close range with precision weapons, that again...cant be overcome with player skill.

 

to fix this imo automatic weapons need straight up faster ttk in close range combat, therefore precision weapons get punished for letting automatics get close, just as automatics are punished everytime they peek out of cover.

I can dig it.

[Cheebusal]

Use both. DMR as primary, and Assault Rifle as secondary.

[zexi]

atm assuming top skill, precisions are better.

 

why?

 

their only limiting facot IS skill, or the persons ability to make the shots land at medium/close range.

 

to a extend a automatic weapon user has to do this too, especially with burst fire at medium range.

 

however, no matter how skilled you are you cant land hits at long range with automatic weapons, obviously there is no REAL penalty for hitting htem at close range with precision weapons, that again...cant be overcome with player skill.

 

to fix this imo automatic weapons need straight up faster ttk in close range combat, therefore precision weapons get punished for letting automatics get close, just as automatics are punished everytime they peek out of cover.

 

No. The point of the game is that some weapons take more skill to use than others. The problem with making "balanced weapons" is that a weapon that takes a lot of skill to use should be very effective given the right amount of skill. For example, if someone has a Sniper (Human version, not binary junk) and they are pro, they will easily wreck everyone with headshots. Of course, the only limiting factor is ammo and ROF.

[W01FE]

No. The point of the game is that some weapons take more skill to use than others. The problem with making "balanced weapons" is that a weapon that takes a lot of skill to use should be very effective given the right amount of skill. For example, if someone has a Sniper (Human version, not binary junk) and they are pro, they will easily wreck everyone with headshots. Of course, the only limiting factor is ammo and ROF.

 

you can say what you want about ordnance drops, but the starting loadout weapons should be equal, so everyone starts at a mostly even playing field.

 

the point of the game is NOT that some weapons take more skill then others, at no point in the campaign or matchmaking, in the menu, options, or on the cover of the damn box is that even remotely suggested. just because players think that doesnt make it true.

 

weapons should have checks and balances essentially, strengths and weaknesses, or areas where it shines and areas where another gun outshines it.

 

DMR long range marksmen rifle

 

BR medium range burst rifle

 

LR a mix depending on scope, weaker unscoped, stronger scoped

 

carbine, single shot higher fire rate medium range rifle, a diff flavor from the BR

 

according to this, the BR should out damage the DMR in terms of TTK, so should the carbine. the LR has faster ttk then dmr when scoped, but slower ttk unscoped.

 

now the precision weapons are mostly balanced with eachother (minor tweaks aside), each one has a place, and none dominate over eachother.

 

to balance them with automatic weapons, they either need to not work at close range (nonsensical) or automatic weapons need a faster ttk then precision weapons, at least at close range, competitive at medium. atm thats not entirely true, in fact everything ive seen suggests atm that DMR is 1.6-1.7 kill time, AR is about 1.7.

 

seems like ideal kill times would make more sense to slow precisionw eapon kill times so automatic weapons dont start becoming the same thing as a freaking SAW.

 

DMR=1.9-2.0 TTK

BR= 1.7-1.8 TTK

carbine=1.7-1.8TTK

LR=SCOPED 1.6-1.7 TTK, UNSCOPED, 2.1-2.2 TTK

 

automatics (assuming close range, not medium)

AR=1.5 (slowest ttk as i feel its most effective at medium range of the autos)

SR=1.4 (faster shield destruction, great for melee)

SPR=1.2-1.3 (fastest at close range as you cannot burst fire it as its bloom takes longer to reset, you willf ull auto this even at medium range, reducing its ttk by more then the others)

 

automatics at medium range (a bit fuzzier here on numbers, bear with me)

 

AR=1.8-1.9 (its now about equal to BR/dmr/carbine assuming you use controled bursts)

SR=1.9-2.0 (cuz of its less accuracy and inability to kill flesh as well, this kills slower at med range, but is still competitive with the DMR user)

SPR=2.1-2.2 (cuz of the way its bloom works different then the other two, you cant effectively burst fire, its faster to kill with at med range with full auto, which is still not that accurate, resulting in the slowest ttk at med range)

 

This results in the DMR/LR scoped out ranging (br and carbine outrange autos as well just not by as much) giving them the edge in larger maps for sure

 

in medium range the BR/carbine are the best precisions for the job, solidifying a use for them with a slightly faster ttk, that is competitive with the automatics medium range ttk, tho BR/carbine can still "touch" auto users from a slightly longer range then they can.

 

in medium range the DMR/LR unscoped have slower ttk then the other weapons, i believe this is balanced cuz of there ranged capabilties, you shouldnt want to get clsoe with these guns, and you should be afraid if someone does get close

 

in med range the AR has best ttk for the autos, compareable with BR/carbine, the SR is still compareable with a DMR, the SPR tho is on par with a unscoped LR resulting in the two slowest TTK starting weapons in the game at this distance

 

in close range the SPR has a TTK faster then any other starting weapon, this is compensated by the close range needed and its extreme drop off in TTK as range increases.

 

in close range the SR has a slightly faster TTK then the AR, and is better for skirmishing for melee kills.

 

in close range the AR has slowest TTK of all the autos, compensated by the fact that it has the fastest at medium range do to greater accuracy.

 

I believe this would mostly balance starting weapons (minor tweaks aside) and the backup weapons would better accomodate certain playstyles, youd almost always see a DMR/LR player with a boltshot for example

[Kogaras]

depends on distance, automatic is best at CQB while the presions weapons are good within the mid and long-range. should really mix and match for maximum effect

[Natsu]

Halo isn't a game where weapons should be balanced. The entire point of the original Halo and Halo 2 was that you had your go-to gun that you started with everytime, either pistol or BR, and you used only that because it was the skilled gun to use. Automatic weapons should be discouraged from being used by their very design. This isn't Call of Duty where every gun needs to be balanced because the autos are just as skillful as the burst and single shots. Autos in Halo are inherently nooby and that just takes all the mechanical skill out of the game and replaces it with rock/paper/scissors in weapon choice. I've always been more of a fan of supporting mechanical skill in games because decision-making is going to be there at all times no matter what. A game with straight DMR is going to take as many decisions as a Halo Reach game with varied weapons. And not only that, but the kind of decision making found in "lol I have this gun at this range and you have that one, lol I win" is just so freakin stupid. Players should win battles based on mechanical skill and not based on what position they placed themselves in with a certain gun. Halo has always been about just one utility gun that had an out to everything at all ranges that you started with, and everything else had a tiny niche that you could use if you just wanted to. Halo 3 and Reach were abominations to the Halo formula that was set up by H2 and CE, and H4 is finally getting back to the roots of what a Halo game actually is, let alone a few minor things like ordnance and sprint.

[W01FE]

the amount of wrong in your post natsu...it honestly hurts to read. and it boils down to you want a OP gun and everything else to fall to the wayside.

[Natsu]

That's what Halo CE and H2 was all about. Most competitive players want exactly that. It's not "wrong," it's just an extreme distaste for rock/paper/scissors styled gameplay and an emphasis on mechanics and not decision making.

[W01FE]

That's what Halo CE and H2 was all about. Most competitive players want exactly that. It's not "wrong," it's just an extreme distaste for rock/paper/scissors styled gameplay and an emphasis on mechanics and not decision making.

 

thats not good or interesting gameplay. sure it might be easier for you to test yourself in a one dimensional fashion vs another player, but it alienates the rest of the game.

 

that and decision making should not be trivialized.

 

and whats bad about rock paper scissors style player exactly? it promotes a push/pull combat field with people constantly jockeying for optimal positioning...much more then it is now everyone staying back as far as possible and team sniping with the DMR on people that pop out. and that IS what ive expierenced, its one of hte reason i like dominion gametype, the forcefields often force closer combat where all the tryhards with there elite DMR get mopped up with some clsoer range weaponry.

 

its not that i hate precision weapons, i use them and dont even dislike it, but i dont like how over the top they have become. especially the DMR, even tho its only slightly out of whack.

 

 

if you want that style of play, just wait for MLG matches, i hear they removed automatic weapons even, so you can use your favored guns without worry of someone mowing you. dont ruin the whole game.

[MegaLowVoltage]

Here is my distaste for automatic weapons... you seem to dump out a clip so quickly. It really gives you one good chance to knock out the shields and take out the enemy, otherwise you are reloading and they are recovering, and/or shoveling out damage upon you while you reload. I'd probably be more apt to use the assault rifle if the clip was a bit larger, though this may also be that I am not the best with auto weapons. I muchly prefer precise punches at mid-to-long range.

[Natsu]

There's just no talking to you. I absolutely hate RPS styled games. It's sickening how Halo 3 played to me, with everyone rushing with AR's and beatdown. I've explained elsewhere how it is 100% necessary for a player to start in Halo with an all-purpose weapon. If you start with CQB only guns, then whichever team wins the opening rush will secure the DMR and power weapons on the map, and then go on to win the game flawlessly. This has been my experience in Halo 3 non-BR start gametypes in rank 50 on all playlists. Experienced players know how much of a disaster AR starts is. It may sound more strategic in your head but in practice it turns into tic-tac-toe.

 

And also, the AR isn't even that bad in this game. You can't just say the DMR guy is going to be perfect. You're implementing your idea of balance in make-believe land. No one, NO ONE is going to 5 shot kill an AR guy ghandi-hopping in your face in this game with the DMR. It just doesn't happen. The AR currently does have a niche in this game, and I sometimes use it to good effect. But again, the purpose of an FPS game is to test player skill in aiming and teamwork, not to see who has the better weapon for the range they are in. That completely destroys competition because it introduces a slew of randomness and snowballing. There's really no point in even talking about this stuff, casual players just can't comprehend high-level play and the inevitable results that happen with certain factors like this.

[LANCERZzZz]

Precision for skill players, Automatic for lesser skilled. It is ALWAYS true that a pro with a precision weapon will wreck someone using an automatic weapon. Also, most automatic weapons are CQC, white precision weapons tend to be mid range or longer.

Not true it all. I got the game last week, I'm level 43, and the only weapon I use is the AR. EVERYONE uses DMR and the BR, so by your logic EVERYONE is a skilled player, which definitely isn't true. It takes actual patience, tactics, and discipline to be good with the assault rifle, especially in a game where everyone else is using precision weapons.

[zexi]

Not true it all. I got the game last week, I'm level 43, and the only weapon I use is the AR. EVERYONE uses DMR and the BR, so by your logic EVERYONE is a skilled player, which definitely isn't true. It takes actual patience, tactics, and discipline to be good with the assault rifle, especially in a game where everyone else is using precision weapons.

 

To you and everyone who don't understand what i'm saying.

 

The more skill a weapon takes to use, the stronger it should be. The perfect example of this is the sniper. A pro with a sniper can easily get an overkill extermination because the sniper is very powerful, but requires skill to be used. Chances are, you were playing with scrubs because you were beating them with an AR while they were using a DMR/BR.

 

There is a limit to how strong every weapon should be. This limit gets highers the more skill it takes to use a weapon. An AR is a very easy weapon to use, so it has a low "power" limit. Sniper takes more skill to use (although it has way too much aim assist in Halo 4) so it has a much higher "power" limit. Of course, it is unfair to compare power weapons because they are designed to give an advantage. A DMR or BR has a longer range and a faster kill time that AR. In fact, the gap between the DMR and BR is not enough. They made their "power" limits too close. I am an advocate of how the weapons worked in Halo 3, because the weapon design was perfect then.

 

This is all with a competitive attitude, so if you are a casual player, of course you want balanced weapons because you aren't as good as skilled players who use DMR/BR and dominate with them.

[W01FE]

There's just no talking to you. I absolutely hate RPS styled games. It's sickening how Halo 3 played to me, with everyone rushing with AR's and beatdown. I've explained elsewhere how it is 100% necessary for a player to start in Halo with an all-purpose weapon. If you start with CQB only guns, then whichever team wins the opening rush will secure the DMR and power weapons on the map, and then go on to win the game flawlessly. This has been my experience in Halo 3 non-BR start gametypes in rank 50 on all playlists. Experienced players know how much of a disaster AR starts is. It may sound more strategic in your head but in practice it turns into tic-tac-toe.

 

just cuz you hate it doesnt mean its not better and requires more varied skillset then just aiming and sidestrafing all day. also your wrong, your using the halo 3 model to comapre it to the halo 4 model which has ordnance drops, and the ability to spawn with precision weapons. not too mention some maps should favor automatics while others favor longer range weaponry. im not gonna take a AR/boltshot loadout to a large open vehicle heavy map, just as you shouldnt be taking DMR/pistol to haven style maps and expect it to perform as well.

 

And also, the AR isn't even that bad in this game. You can't just say the DMR guy is going to be perfect. You're implementing your idea of balance in make-believe land. No one, NO ONE is going to 5 shot kill an AR guy ghandi-hopping in your face in this game with the DMR. It just doesn't happen. The AR currently does have a niche in this game, and I sometimes use it to good effect. But again, the purpose of an FPS game is to test player skill in aiming and teamwork, not to see who has the better weapon for the range they are in. That completely destroys competition because it introduces a slew of randomness and snowballing. There's really no point in even talking about this stuff, casual players just can't comprehend high-level play and the inevitable results that happen with certain factors like this.

 

the AR isnt that bad, but isnt that bad isnt balanced. and in order to provide proper balance you have to say the AR and hte DMR palyer are going to be perfect, otherwise your not balancing, your catering. and it does happen, just because the majority isnt skilled enough makes no difference. a fps game isnt soley relegated to AIMING and TEAMWORK it entirely depends on the level, weapons available, gametypes, etc. not too mention in any 3d fps game positioning and awareness are just as important as aiming. your boiling it down too thin, you mine as well play duckhunter team version. and it doesnt introduce randomness, it introduces tactics, forcing players to jockey for positioning, the one thats worse at it, gets out played and gunned down.

 

yoru last line is not only hyperbole, but its sad that "high level" players are just that unskilled in general that all they can manage is shouting thru voice chat and popping headshots. because thats what your alluding to.

 

and once again, if you want high level gameplay, go play MLG when they open up, dont ruin halo just cuz you cant do more then use precision weapons and aim.

 

To you and everyone who don't understand what i'm saying.

 

The more skill a weapon takes to use, the stronger it should be. The perfect example of this is the sniper. A pro with a sniper can easily get an overkill extermination because the sniper is very powerful, but requires skill to be used. Chances are, you were playing with scrubs because you were beating them with an AR while they were using a DMR/BR.

 

There is a limit to how strong every weapon should be. This limit gets highers the more skill it takes to use a weapon. An AR is a very easy weapon to use, so it has a low "power" limit. Sniper takes more skill to use (although it has way too much aim assist in Halo 4) so it has a much higher "power" limit. Of course, it is unfair to compare power weapons because they are designed to give an advantage. A DMR or BR has a longer range and a faster kill time that AR. In fact, the gap between the DMR and BR is not enough. They made their "power" limits too close. I am an advocate of how the weapons worked in Halo 3, because the weapon design was perfect then.

 

This is all with a competitive attitude, so if you are a casual player, of course you want balanced weapons because you aren't as good as skilled players who use DMR/BR and dominate with them.

 

the more skill a waepon takes to use, the stronger it should be"==== thats so wrong its not even funny. all that means is the more "skilled" player gets to dominate all day long. thats not balance, thats not fun (maybe for the tryhards). Now am i against a AR taking mroe skill to use? certainly not, but to say a weapon is hard to use so if i can use it well i get to be god is complete and utter crap. for you to even think its right says a lot.

 

your last sentence is tha tof a epeen flexing ******* with little to no concept of fun beyond there own personal domination of other players. again, your belong in MLG formats when it opens up, not in regular game modes, go take your epeen flexing hardon somewhere else and let the general community enjoy the game.

[zexi]

^ Last time I checked, an FPS game was about aiming. Aiming, or hand eye coordination, is a skill. Some of us have more than others. Skilled players don't use the AR because it's not as good as the BR/DMR. I use a DMR and beat AR users in CQC because I have more skill than them and they hinder themselves by using such a weapon. They are lucky to get even close to killing me, but that is because 343 decided to try to "balance" weapons and make the AR stronger than it should be.

[W01FE]

^ Last time I checked, an FPS game was about aiming. Aiming, or hand eye coordination, is a skill. Some of us have more than others. Skilled players don't use the AR because it's not as good as the BR/DMR. I use a DMR and beat AR users in CQC because I have more skill than them and they hinder themselves by using such a weapon. They are lucky to get even close to killing me, but that is because 343 decided to try to "balance" weapons and make the AR stronger than it should be.

 

im not saying FPS games should not involve aiming, your tyring to make it only about aiming and voice chat, meanwhile positioniong and awareness should be just as important. and if its not as good, then it needs buffed obviously.

 

im done with you, you obviously dont only not carea bout balance, you have no concept of what makes a game good. i fyou want a test of skill, you need to boil the game down to its aboslut basics. this is what MLG is doign, no sprint, all precision weapons, no specialization, etc...go play that, leave halo to the rest of us.

[zexi]

im not saying FPS games should not involve aiming, your tyring to make it only about aiming and voice chat, meanwhile positioniong and awareness should be just as important. and if its not as good, then it needs buffed obviously.

 

im done with you, you obviously dont only not carea bout balance, you have no concept of what makes a game good. i fyou want a test of skill, you need to boil the game down to its aboslut basics. this is what MLG is doign, no sprint, all precision weapons, no specialization, etc...go play that, leave halo to the rest of us.

 

MLG is MLG because it is a true test of skill. If you make all guns "balanced" you're doing it wrong. not to mention it's impossible to make everything balanced. The only thing casuals like you want from a "good game" is an advantage against players with actual skill.

[Natsu]

I agree with zexi. The problem with your idea of balance is that it isn't balance at all. You have two guns, one that takes skill to use and one that doesn't. Currently, the skilled one is much more powerful to use than the unskilled one. Now, if you changed this and made the DMR equally as *useful* as the AR, which is what is meant by balance (albeit useful in different scenarios, but equally useful in terms of amount and capacity) then you all of a sudden have everyone using the AR. Why would someone bother training the DMR if they get the same proportionate reward out of using the AR? Your logic is so skewed to think you are balancing the game by doing so. All it does is take away incentive from mastering the more skilled gun, because the reward for using each is equally balanced. I agree wholeheartedly with balance in games like COD where every type of gun is roughly equal in skill to use (although I always argued that snipers in COD should be a bit better than all other guns just because they were more difficult to use). I mean, look at COD Black Ops 1. The snipers were atrocious to use in that game and took waaaay more skill than anything else. But there was no incentive to use the sniper because its effective range and "value" of use was equivalent to everything else. This appeared balanced to the developers and people like you, but absolutely no one used the snipers because they could put up the same scores with a lesser weapon.

 

The more skilled a gun is, the more overpowered it must be. This is what true balance actually is. You're delusional to think game design shouldn't work this way. Otherwise you have no incentive to actually use the more skilled guns because you have to learn a niche that takes more time and yields the same results as the easier gun. It was the same in Starcraft. The Terran race was more difficult to use than Protoss (as far as mechanical skill on the keyboard went), and the design was the Terrans were simply better if both players were complete robots in terms of playing perfectly at all times (which is the equivalent of getting a 5 shot DMR at all times as fast as possible). This actually made SC the most balanced game in the history of competitive games because no Terran actually could reach such robotic levels but could still strive for it while the Protoss would try to throw their mechanics off by putting them out of their comfort zone using obscure strategies. I've been a high level competitive gamer in a multitude of games and I think you are just clueless about your ideas of balance because you have to have incentives to use the more skilled guns other than sheer bragging rights. And no, just having the gun be good at mid range is not a proper reward because a DMR user would perform equally to an AR user that is always at close range. The DMR user would just drop the DMR, get an AR and simply play close ranged and get the same score without needing to put as much effort in to learning the more skilled gun.

 

And besides all of that, such a system slows the game down to teeth-grinding proportions. All the DMR users would be too scared to push or be aggressive because any corner they turn could have an AR user camping that would beat them. The DMR would have to avoid walls and corners so as to stay in their proper range. The AR user would have to avoid open spaces and stay around walls and corners. So you have the AR users playing base defense because it doesn't expose them to ranged fire and the DMR users avoiding base attacks because they have to move into walled areas. This is how stuff went down in Halo 3 to an extent, except most players would have both guns usually because there were many pick up BRs. But switching between the right weapon for the right range wasn't a tactical decision at all; it was common sense. And it became much more of a chore than a tactic to just keep switching between guns for different ranges.

[zexi]

^ Couldn't have said it better myself, literally.

 

When I first started play Halo seriously, so many years ago, I was in Halo 3 and I began by using the AR. Being a complete noob, I was not good with the BR or any precision weapon because I was new to FPS games. However, at a certain point, my skill got high enough that using the AR was not the best option for me anymore. I eventually upgraded to the BR because while it requires more skill to use, it also gets kills faster. However, you will not do well with a weapon that requires skill no matter how strong the weapon is if you re not skilled. That's what true "weapon balance" is. The strength of a weapon is limited by the skill required to use it. The more skill a weapon requires to be used, to more potential power it has. The less skill a weapon requires to be used, to less potential power it should have.

[LiQuid BioniX]

I tend to use precision weapons most of the time, but that's because I've been playing Halo for a long time. In all honesty, precision weapons will beat automatic weapons the majority of the time.

 

That being said, people who complain about how much the assault rifle and other automatic weapons suck are blindly running into rooms spraying. If you pick your engagements well and you keep it CQC, automatic weapons will outdo precision weapons. Just because they shoot a lot of bullets doesn't mean they take no skill.

 

Also, I've found that people who use auto weapons tend to use their grenades and armor abilities much better than someone who takes more of a distance.

[zexi]

I tend to use precision weapons most of the time, but that's because I've been playing Halo for a long time. In all honesty, precision weapons will beat automatic weapons the majority of the time.

 

That being said, people who complain about how much the assault rifle and other automatic weapons suck are blindly running into rooms spraying. If you pick your engagements well and you keep it CQC, automatic weapons will outdo precision weapons. Just because they shoot a lot of bullets doesn't mean they take no skill.

 

Also, I've found that people who use auto weapons tend to use their grenades and armor abilities much better than someone who takes more of a distance.

 

Automatic weapons just take less skill to use. However, as Bungie/343 has implemented more extras to Halo, the players who mainly use CQC automatic weapons have expanded what they can do to them. I'm not sure if it's actually possible that people never become good at using precision weapons, but for those people that it applies to, using AAs and other tactics is good. However, it's all these tactics they must employ to catch up with precision weapon users who simply have good aim and positioning. A player who is truly good with precision weapons also has good awareness and positioning so they don't get outwitted by automatic weapon users unless they get gangbanged or the automatic user pulls something really clever, something precision weapon users aren't entirely incapable of doing.

[LiQuid BioniX]

I definitely tend to agree with you zexi. Automatic weapons absolutely take less skill to use. That being said though, people can still be pretty effective with them if they play the the right way.